InsideAMind of Oliver Moorhouse | Fatherhood, MENSPIRE & Health Anxiety #31

:: 00:00

Welcome back to the podcast. Our guest today is Olly Morehouse, the Managing Director of MenSpire and a big men's mental health advocate. The three topics we discuss today are fatherhood, menspire and health anxiety all topics that are very dear to Olly's heart. Enjoy the episode and if you want to get in contact with Olly, all his information will be down below.

:: 00:25

So my name is Olly Morehouse. I don't really ever know what to say. What I am, I think I like to say I'm a hairdresser, I'm a businessman, I'm a husband, I'm a father, I'm a son. I'm pretty much just a normal bloke, really. I've got a pretty cool kind of job. I've got an amazing family. I've got a great network of people around me. I get to surround myself with some really inspiring people every day that keep me on the straight and narrow and essentially, you know, I spend a lot of my time mentoring young men and ultimately seeing many different personalities, learning a lot about different people and understanding people's characters, all alongside trying to do the same thing with myself. You know, I'm 32 now.

Like I said before, I'm a father, I'm married, I am a family man. I think it's quite an easy term to chuck around to say that you're a family man is probably you know, I think it's quite an easy term to chuck around to say that you're a family man, but my full focus I can say with, with, with all my heart is that every day is about you know, whether it's about pleasing your family or providing for your family, everything is based around. You know what my son sees of me and what what my wife sees of me. So I think, um, I mean, that was quite jumbled how I said all of that, but I think I think sometimes, when, when you try and explain who you are to someone, it is a bit like that and I think that gives quite an honest reflection of where, where I'm at, really like any standout stories or conversations you've had while cutting people's hair that sort of come back to you at first thought when I said yeah do you know it's mad you say that, bro.

I literally I speak to my dad on the phone most days, right, and I spoke to him this morning and we were talking about how it sounds. This is gonna sound ridiculous like context wise, but like I used to, I used to whenever I mean we're going to talk about health anxiety, so maybe we should say like health anxiety here, but whenever I had a doctor sit in my chair, it's just like stand out to me, like obviously there's loads of amazing stories, like really cool ones, like I cut this footballer or I cut this musician or actor, blah, blah, blah. There's loads of like really cool stuff. But something that really sticks out to me and on the phone I was like do you remember when I used to get a doctor to sit in my chair and I'd personally save their number?

:: 02:45

and it was just like you know, like I mean.

:: 02:47

I don't know how I feel I could talk, but some people get a number and they're like I'll save that phone number, I'll call that number when I need it.

:: 02:53

Yeah, say no more for me it was class when I got a doctor.

:: 02:57

I was like, oh my god, I've got a doctor's number, fucking text them and ring them and oh, just like, looking back at it, it just makes me laugh. So if that's my standout moment with a client, it's an example of something that uh was was funny and humorous back in the day. That's amazing. Yeah, I mean, like for many people, right, talking to a doctor it's just talking to a doctor. Yeah, for for me, with with with health anxiety and what it is and and kind of the OCD side of things, like even being near a doctor can, can be a thing.

I know that might sound bonkers and there'll be people that see this like and I'm very aware of that that are in my clientele now that might not know or don't know this, this side of my personality, so much. But you know, some people talk about OCD, right, and they go, yeah, I've got, yeah, I've got OCD, I've got OCD. And I go, yeah, whenever my aftershave bottle's on the side, I always move it so it's square, I've got OCD. And you think, yeah, I suppose that is a form of OCD. But you know, being obsessive and compulsive about something, there's no limits to that right, and I think, think like you can get to. Yeah, I mean me.

Sat with a doctor is a recipe for a disaster, so if one of you say like oh yeah, I've got, I've got a medical degree, you're gonna get I think many men treat the barber shop almost as a form of therapy.

:: 04:15

Yeah, why do you think men see the barber shop as a place where they can be open with?

:: 04:20

others. I think, like I think, generally speaking, men and women see it like yeah, I think like I. I know we're focused on men's hair, but I think someone to come so close to your personal space, I think people underestimate that a little bit. Going for a haircut is one thing you get your hairs cut shorter, that's obvious. But as a guy, if I stood up now and started holding one of your hairs and like picking up your hair, I'm close, I'm close to you guys, I'm in your personal space, it would be awkward, right. But there's a guard that you let down at the door of a barbershop, that this guy is going to come over and he's going to pick my hairs up and he's going to cut them shorter. And that's not even getting towards kind of like the trust element of someone changing your appearance or or or having all that control, handing over all that control to someone. You have to trust them and I think, like there's obviously the, the technical trust. You want to hope they're going to give you a good haircut. But I think you know that half an hour, that's very rare in life that you have and obviously we're doing podcast, so we've got an hour to sit here and talk. But to have half an hour with someone that you don't know that well most of the time isn't necessarily your friend or known that much about you as a client In your personal space, touching you, touching your hair, talking to you about you know, frankly, whatever you want to talk about, and I think, like you know, whatever you want to talk about and I think, like you know, for for a client, that's quite a nice thing, especially if you know, we try and create a culture at menspy where it is a safe space for people and and it is a place where people can be open with us and converse, because I know that I lead by example in that with my younger teams, like they see me talk to my clients about all kinds of things. Don't get me wrong, I like to keep it, um, I like to keep it respectful and kind and all the things that their needs for the customer service element, and I don't want to talk about things that are necessarily uncouth in the shop and things like that.

But if someone opens up to me, I'm going to talk to them, you know. If someone says to me oh you know a lot of my clients, I've cut for a long time and they'll sit in my chair and they'll be like you're right today and and we've kind of got this like open conversation within the salon at all times where if someone's not feeling good, I would expect them to tell me that and I'd really hope that you know that's not just the staff, that's also also the clients, because you know there know there's an amazing atmosphere in a men's bar salon. Obviously you've been to the shops, I'm like there's no music playing, it's calm, it's relaxed, it's fashion focused. Definitely we're there to give you like great haircuts and make you feel and look good. But also we talk a lot about our culture being a place where our wives, our mums, our, our sisters and I'm talking about clients, I'm talking about women, plural can come and sit in and be comfortable in the environment. You know, like, don't get me wrong, that's not like something we push, it's not like you have to bring your wife for a haircut. That's not what I'm saying.

But I always remember I was in jordan once with sam right jordan, in the middle east, and I was talking about about where basically there was a franchise of men's bar opening over there and trying to, in trying to explain to someone a feeling is really really hard.

Trying to explain to someone that you don't know how you want someone to feel in your building, in your business, is a really hard thing, and I remember saying like you need to create an atmosphere that you'd be happy for your mum and sister to feel comfortable in, and I think that just kind of sums it up a little bit.

Like you know, if I think about when I used to go to the hairdressers or barbers when I was a kid, I think of music, pounding or like a horrible film on the telly, or swearing or talking about girls or drugs or partying, or or you know, almost like you walk into an atmosphere where you kind of have to be like, oh, there's kids there, like that doesn't happen in a men's bar, because because we've we've done it in a way where the feeling you walk in there, you leave, you feel, you feel great, like I, I love being in there because don't get me wrong like we're a group of lads that all work together, and there's times where we do look at each other and go all right, cool, let's stop that conversation, sort of thing.

:: 08:33

Obviously, that's normal.

:: 08:35

But at the same time, like if my mum called me and said, oh, I'm in, I don't know, Nottingham, I'm popping into Men's Bar for a coffee There'd be no part of me that thinks, oh, I hope she doesn't see anything she doesn't like. And that's a nice feeling and I think that trust begins there. You know, like from someone coming into the shop for a haircut, that trust comes because they can feel that they're surrounded by good people and everyone in there has got everyone's best interests at heart. I love that.

:: 09:05

That safe space that you created for yourself? Has it ever been a challenge for you where you're going through a dark time how hard is that to then go into that space and create that safe space?

:: 09:14

for your clients. Yeah, it's a really that's like a Parker question man, because I think about it a lot myself, like I. There's both sides of that. There's also the times where I'm not in the salon and how much I think, oh my God, I could really just do some time in the shop. Like I cut hair probably two and a half, three days a week in the salon right now, but I'm in the salons five days a week, but whether I'm cutting hair or not, but things like when I go on holiday, I miss the strength that I take from the salons, definitely 100%. I think, like you know, the the feeling that I get from being surrounded by people that that have the same kind of goals as me is really, really important, and I think, like the minute you take that away, even short term, you feel a bit unhinged. So so that's one side of looking at it.

But then the times where I'm having a tough time and I'm in the salon, yeah, I think it's really hard. I think it's probably the hardest part of the hardest part of what I do. Is that really because you know, I'm the, I am the boss or one of the bosses, so it's kind of my job to keep these younger guys not all younger, but young guys and men like-minded to me. It's my job to keep them feeling inspired. But I feel like sometimes I feel like sometimes actually a bit of transparency from me and actually having a bad day is okay and, and you know, we've just had a few bits going on in one of the salons recently and it was really tough. It knocked me for absolute six and everyone that comes to the shop knows me, they know my character. That's the lads that work there, the people that get their haircuts they're all just local people in the community, know what I'm like, they know my character, they know when I'm not having a good time and I think you know unfortunately I'm a big personality that if I'm having a good day, the whole salon will have a good day, and if I'm having a bad day, I can curse it, and I know I can. And I think sometimes I just have to speak to the people around me that are, you know, that run the shop, if you like, because I don't like to think of myself as the person who runs the shop. There's lads in there that do a lot more than me at running the shop and I'll say to them I'm having a tough day, give me a wide berth, but you know I'm also. You know I'm soft. You can probably see that, even talking like I'm a soft person, that will.

If I'm feeling low, I'll wobble and you know, when you're cutting someone's hair and tear that doesn't just go away just because they're paying for your haircut. If they say to you having a bad day, yeah, I'm having a bad day, what's going on? Oh, this is going on like I'm not going to hide it, and I'm and I'm very, very content and at peace with, with a tear in my eye when I'm saying that, like it's not, it's not something that I'm necessarily trying to, um, it's not something that I'm trying to like be away from. I'm good. I'm good, I'm good with with being open about where I'm at. Have you?

:: 12:05

always been that way yeah that's a really rare thing, because tom and I speak about this a lot. It's the softer side of you, which I think tom and I definitely have, and I've had to work on that. I've had to work on being having my guard down and being open my friends and my family and even people like tom, um, but you've been like that since you can remember.

:: 12:23

I think so. I think I'm definitely like I'm complex man, I'm complex, but like I'm definitely not embarrassed to cry. I love that at all. Don't get me wrong. I watch TV and something will make me feel emotional, that's normal. But, like you know, I talk with passion. Like I'll watch TV and something will make me feel emotional, that's normal. But, like you know, if I talk with passion, you know, and I think like by that I don't mean like I'm, like I'm so passionate, but what I mean is I wear my heart on my sleeve and if I'm in a conversation I had a meeting with one of my business partners a couple of weeks ago and it was heavy, you know. We had some big stuff to talk about but if tears go into my eyes, I'm not going to be the sort of person that like, oh, I've got hay fever, I'll cry. I'm a crier man and I think I don't think that's a negative thing. Really I think it can. Definitely. You know, it shows vulnerability to a certain extent, and I think that's fine as much as anything.

:: 13:25

It can just be a bit annoying, you know what I mean.

:: 13:26

Like, like, there's times where, like my son's nativity play last week, I was like sat at the front. There's like all the dads, yeah, I mean, and I'm just like bawling my eyes out even my missus looks.

She's like you're all right, I was like, but, but you know what, like if that's, if that's a character, for I'm good with that, like if that's something that I can go, oh, but man, I wish I didn't cry so much. It's not a big deal, I love that, I've not. Yeah, it's not something that phases me. So, you feel a lot, yeah, I feel a lot. You feel a lot. Yeah, I feel too much actually. Yeah, good and bad, yeah, I think I'm very.

I'll never forget I had a client who said to me you've got such an inquisitive mind and, like you know, inquisitive mind can mean many things. But I think, like I'm kind of like everything that I do I break down so much into such little parts and I think I think you know, in many things in work and in in therapy or whatever, it's positive, but then there's a lot of things that that is just overthinking and it can just completely. Oh, my god, man, it can just, it can wear you thin, bro. You know, like, even even like I reckon I text tom four times before today. What's the location, what time we started and like ironically, last night he just like swiped his message from two weeks ago and asked him before.

But my mind doesn't work, I like that. I don't think to go up, I need to ask again and like you know what, like for a long time I would battle with that and I would battle with that, I would try and edit it. And then you get to an age where you kind of think you know what, like I'm good man, like if this is bad, then fucking hell, like I'll take that as bad. Like sorry, tom, to text you loads, but like who cares?

:: 15:13

He messaged me being like can he go away? Yeah, this guy, you know, this guy is a fucking demon man. He's just a hairdresser. Why is he even?

:: 15:18

here, it's fine, it's fine.

:: 15:20

I wanted to ask you do you think that the the power struggle and the authority side of things, do you think that's why it affected you as someone to school when you had to look into everything, question everything that was being?

:: 15:28

asked yeah, I think school, I was just um at school I was just uh, all these things that have come to the surface, if you like, in my adult life were just like bubbling at that point. I don't think I was really doing anything different to anyone else at school. I was just a nightmare. At school, man, I just, I just didn't care. I was always like really respectful and I believe kind I'm sure I've had errors in my character at some point, but like I was never like a nasty person. I was just a bit of a nightmare. I was erratic. I was up and down, I suppose, like loads of ADHD traits, but the authority thing, no man. If traits, um, but but the authority thing, no man I'm I.

:: 16:09

If you're asking about my authority, you're asking about like well, it's more just like looking into things so much and questioning why someone's telling you to do your algebra and your tables I mean and you're thinking but why am I going to be doing this when I don't need it?

:: 16:17

I think I was just disobedient actually, yeah, to be honest, I'd love to give you like a like a cool answer there and trendy, but I think, like, actually, I would think I was just a bit of a dick, do you?

know, what I mean. But but like, but then I, but then I think most people were at that age and I think you know I'm definitely, definitely the one thing I did like about school was authority. To be honest, interesting, don't get me wrong someone's saying to me do your algebra? Like you said. No, I don't want to do algebra. But if he says tuck your shirt and I'm tuck shirt in, like I definitely wasn't a douche, like I think, like I hear so a lot in my industry.

You hear people hammering school and going I didn't need school, I didn't need this. If I go to my son's, you know, obviously I've got the flip side. Now I've got a little boy. If I go to his parents' evening and his teacher says he's unbelievable at maths, he's so clever but he's really rude to the assistant in the class or he's nasty to I could not give a toss about his maths. If I go and they say he's really struggling with his maths, he's not that good at English but he's so kind and he looks after You're willing? Yeah, and I say that with complete transparency. Yeah, like, and I say that with complete transparency, like you know, I think the only thing that I want him to come out of school with is respect for authority, being punctual and being kind, and you know the, the, the only yeah, I mean that's the only thing I want from school. To be honest. See, the only yeah, I mean that's the only thing I want from school. To be honest, I love that.

:: 17:53

What's it like being a dad? Oh dude.

:: 17:57

Yeah, I mean, look, here's what I'd say about it is I'm very fortunate that I'll just take a breath, take a time out of your thoughts yeah like you know, my wife is.

She's solid. Do you know what I'm saying? She's pretty like. I feel like sometimes I do her injustice and I go no, she's just good. She's one of those lucky people that's just good in her head the whole time. But she is, you know, she's balanced. She's just good. She's one of those lucky people that's just good in her head the whole time. But she is, she's balanced, she's exactly that and she gives stability, if you like, to our household. That, I think, makes my job easier. Do you know what I'm saying? Because I can kind of dip in and out. I can kind of do men's spire come home, play football in the garden, do wwe on the bed and then put him to bed, do?

you know what I mean so like it works right now.

My part of being a dad's amazing bro, like it's so special, it's, um, I mean, definitely a challenge, I think. I think. I think we're kind of like programmed as guys that the mum obviously births the baby physically and then you have this baby in your arms and all your problems go away and you fall in love with the baby and everything's happy and that's it for the rest of your life and I'll never forget it. I've probably never said this out loud, but I remember them giving me Bodhi when he was born. I looked at him and I was like what do I do?

:: 19:26

What do I?

:: 19:27

do here, don't drop him.

:: 19:29

I mean, obviously I'm not maternal, I know that's the female version, paternal. It doesn't come naturally to me, I have to be honest. But I remember thinking, well, hang on a sec. So I've got this little boy, I've got a beautiful missus, lovely house, a child called Bodie, which is such a rad name. He's amazing In my hand. I'm thinking this is where all my problems are going to go away.

Then you wake up the next day, day two, and the same kind of thoughts that were there before are still there, and it's kind of quite a scary feeling really, because then you're thinking, oh my God, I've navigated it this far for me, and then a little bit for me and Karina, my wife, and then now I've got to be a dad and navigate it as well. So, yeah, I mean, bro, being a father is like the biggest blessing in the world, it's the best thing ever for me. You know, doing it with karina, as being a parent with karina is, is special, it's amazing. We're, we're a good team man, um, but I'm still learning every single day like I think um, you know it sounds very cliche to say that, but you know, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a tough fucking character. I'm complex on my own, let alone then having to to be a dad as well. And there's so many things that I said to you guys before. You know I'm so protective of Bodhi slipping into things that I might have slipped into as a child, or seeing things that perhaps I don't want him to see and hearing things that I don't want him to hear.

And you know I that um experience has taught me that a lot of my traits that I struggle with day to day now are from being when I was younger and I think, like for, for Karina and I trying to navigate it together, giving Bodia, you know, he gets to his I kind of talk a bit of like just him being on zero when he gets to 18, like not in minus.

Do you know what I'm saying, and I don't get me wrong, I don't, I don't mean that as it sounds, I don't mean that in being in minuses is is going to be terrible if he is, but getting him to kind of 16, 17 with minimal trials and tribulations, is what I'm after, um, because I think, I think that as society we're a lot more um aware of this stuff now. Thank god, and I think you know, as parents, you know, bless her. Karina's lived with me, man, since we were 80, since we were 18, so for her that must have been super tough and and I think that you know, at the same time she's got the patience of a saint. She also understands, she's an understanding person. That I think is super, super. On the mission with me to make sure that that bodhi kind of comes out unscathed absolutely.

:: 22:15

I talked about this quite a lot um with my girlfriend and for those of you watching that can see this. I almost see it as like a wavelength thing. And I go up, my highs are high, my lows are low. My highs are high, my lows are low, my highs are high, my lows are low. Meg's a constant. She'll drop down and she'll go up and she'll drop down, but having her as a constant in a relationship brings my peaks and troughs a lot smaller and I think it's one of the key things in a relationship which I didn't realise I was missing for myself.

It's having someone who sort of can tolerate when you're at your lows and tolerate when you're at your highs. Yeah, and see it from their point of view and be there to you know, minimize that in a way is honestly one of the biggest godsends oh man, a million percent.

:: 23:00

I think like, um, there was times in my life, not even that long ago, probably two, three maybe, just yeah, two or three years ago that I used to like kind of joke with karina and be like, come on, man, like let's be a bit more spontaneous, let's be, let's do this last minute, let's do that. And I used to kind of like sort of semi, like take the piss, like it's in my character to just wind her up a bit and say like how are you like, how are you happy? Just like chilling on a friday night watching a movie. Like why are you?

You know, I would want to go to some flash restaurant in the west end. She's content with fish and chips on the sofa and I think, like, if you take from that exactly as it sounds like there's, there's like I admire it, to be honest, like I would say for me, like to be able to just be kind of chilled and and and flatline makes it sound negative, but constant is a nice way of putting it. Like I envy her for that and I envy many people. You know those people that you go like they tell you a story and I'm like are you not worried about that and they're like, well, no, it's all right, we'll figure it out. And I'm like what?

:: 24:05

You're worrying for them. Dude, dude, 100%.

:: 24:10

It applies to so many areas of my personality, like food's a big one, like I will sit on the sofa with Karina and I always use this as the example and she'll walk in fridge one bit of Galaxy, one bit of Galaxy, eat it with a cup of tea and she'll be like oh, that was really nice. And I'm looking at her, thinking where's the rest of the bar. I'm thinking who does that? Like so weird, but actually, but, but really. In the last, probably in real recent times, I realized like oh my god, like how nice to just have that balance, how nice to have that. And I think, like you know, going to the gym three times in a week, and there's loads of examples Doing things like normal, I suppose.

:: 24:53

A steady state. You need it, it's just nice, I'd love that.

:: 24:57

I'm getting better. Like you know, I think I'm quite hard on myself. I'm so easy to say, oh, I'd love to be like this. I'm getting better at it and I think, like you know, I owe her a lot for that, Absolutely.

:: 25:11

Do you think you've used your growing up and your youth potentially as a way to parent Bodhi in a better way that you might not have had when you grew up? Do you think you've used that?

:: 25:18

Yeah, I think like it's a really hard one, isn't it? Like? I mean, everyone in their life goes through stuff, right, and I think when we, when we're kids, and we think about our parents, you think of them as like older and going through things that you might one day have to go, and then 15 years later you're exactly the same. Do you know what I'm saying? I think back to like being a kid, thinking about my parents as like one day I'll be like that, and just so quickly you become that. So, yeah, I mean, is there decisions I'm actively and consciously making to protect Bodhi? Yeah, there is man. There really is. I think.

You know I've worked so hard in therapy and there's so many things that come up from my childhood and that doesn't mean that doesn't mean that there was any errors in my childhood, but there's things that, going from a level of understanding of that, that I will definitely try and put an influence on, on bodhi's definitely. But you know, I'm sure there'll be things that I miss, because I'm not perfect and neither is Karina, but if you're asking me what those things are, I try really, really hard to give him a very kind of not even cotton-walled aspect on things, but I don't give him too much detail on things he doesn't need detailing. And I think like I forget what the expression is. I'm not even going to try and reel off a quote here, right, but like having too much information can be really, really negative, like really negative.

And I think like there was things in my childhood yeah, overstimulated man Like I can be overstimulated even now by conversations and I think, like when you've got that young, pure mind that has got nothing but pure intention and admiration for his parents, bodhi, looking at me if I say something to him, he's going to take it as absolute gospel. And I think, like I try really hard to just kind of never kind of jade his views on things. Let him kind of figure stuff out. I mean, he's four, let's not get it twisted. He's four. He's into play-doh, a little bit of football and listening to like one song on repeat for like three months, right, so like there's not much jeopardizing his views right now, but am I actively, consciously making decisions to protect him?

:: 27:42

yeah, you thought about your um traits earlier. I know, uh, you suffer with health anxiety. I'd love to touch on that. Is that something you try and hide from bodie, or are you going to educate him when he grows?

:: 27:54

yeah, um. So. So I think health anxiety is so quite hard to talk about. Um, because, because a lot of people hear things about health anxiety. I mean there's a lot of stuff in the press last year like big names like Lewis Capaldi and people like that talking about health anxiety and kind of everyone's reaction was like well, I've got health anxiety too, I've got health anxiety. Everyone's got it. Everyone's got anxiety. Everyone's got areas in their personality it's normal to have right, but there's worry about your health, like everyone should do, and be conscious and be aware and be anxious about symptoms that they notice. Yeah, I think that's quite normal.

But I think, like the uncontrollable aspects of health anxiety that is very closely linked to ocd is is where it becomes kind of a whole different thing. You know? What I'm basically saying is that, like frankly, it's normal for you to be concerned about your health. You know most people are. There's some people that aren't, but most people have a, have a worry about their health when they're unwell or they spot something different in their body. That's normal. And the difference between that and someone who suffers with health anxiety, you know, to a chronic way, is that you know every single thought that enters your head when you're in a state of whatever you want to call it trauma, manicness, whatever it is, when you're in an episode of health anxiety. There's not a single thing that goes through my head other than health anxiety and being negative and being concerned that I'm really really poorly.

And you know, I think people's kind of there's not much like speak about health anxiety, there isn't much conversation about it. And I think like, don't get me wrong, we're in a place now where mental health is like a huge conversation the whole time. Like I literally feel like I talk about it at least once a day with someone, right, but then you say to someone so they go, so what's your thing? Because everyone's got a thing right. Everyone in the world, everyone men, women, everyone's got a form of mental health, whether it's good, bad, ugly, whatever. But health anxiety is niche man and even I'm sat here now as someone that's had it, suffered with it. Whatever you want to word it right, my therapist will watch this. So I've got to word things right so I can frame it the right way. But, like, everyone in the world has their own versions of these things and it's how intense it becomes and how much it takes over your regular health and your regular life.

And you know, I was kind of I remember from a really young age man, like when I was younger my granny was very poorly and I just remember being young, thinking oh my God, is that what happens? Like my thought process was like is that what happens when you get ill? You know X becomes Y and very quickly, you know you lose everything and you get really sick and get really skinny and all this scary stuff. And then very quickly you kind of get to your like I remember being at school and we had this guy come in and talk about testicular cancer, right, and he did this like session in assembly, if you like. We were like 14, and like everyone was kind of like, oh, that was good as we left, that's good to know.

And I was like, yeah, that was good as we left, that's good to know. And I was like, yeah, that was good to know. And I remember, I remember just like from that day I was like, well, everything you said I can feel that or I can do that. And then I'd like self-diagnose myself with this, with this thing, and obviously different age, less kind of um kind of stresses were running alongside that, because so it was nipped in the bud quite quickly once the doctors got checked. It was fine, yeah, obviously. But then you kind of add in being a grown-up and the stresses that run alongside normal life and this kind of trigger within me that when, when things aren't going right on the outside, these feelings come on the inside. And oh my god. I mean I said, I've said to you before, tom, when I cut your hair, like I've had I reckon I've had every single cancer in the world and like I say that with a smile on my face, I don't even mean it in a chippy way, but like I've had every illness you can possibly have at some point and we're not likeive, I kind of yourself yeah, I mean convince myself, it's not even about convince myself I've got it. And like you know, I kind of use, the kind of drug addict analogy, a little bit on it, because it's the only way I can really explain it. But like, I'll get this thought and I will lock myself in a room genuinely on a laptop, watching TV videos about it and completely and utterly study the hell out of it and get all this information. You know I spoke about getting to and be completely and utterly focused. That that's what's happening with me, and the unfortunate thing with it is is that in many, many kind of anxiety symptoms et cetera, you can kind of seek therapy and see a GP and have your mind put at ease that you know it's going to pass and la-la-la-la. But unfortunately, with health anxiety, you can't sit in a room with someone that says to you no, this is never going to happen to you, and I know that applies to a lot of life. But, like, the uncertainty is something you have to actually find peace with and understand, because the chances are, one day I may well get poorly, I may well get some of these things that I'm so petrified of now, and I think, like that's why me being active with therapy and speaking to my therapist as regularly as possible when I really, really need her is important because actually, just like talking and even like this talking and like kind of building, like breaking the walls on it a little bit, are really important. But it is the sort of situation where no one could say anything.

When I'm bad and I mean I use the term manic, right, I mean manic refers to bipolar more, and I don't have bipolar, obviously, thank God. But when I am in an episode of health anxiety, which can be a day or it can be three months or it can be six months, there's nothing that anyone says around me that can make me stop doing what I'm doing. And when you're 18 and it's new, that's really really scary, like seriously scary. I'm now 32 and I've been through a lot of these episodes, if you like, and I know and understand now that it will pass. I still have boxes that I need to tick though when I'm when I'm doing it because, for example, I had a situation not that long ago, to be honest, um, where I had this like lump thing on my on my jaw here and it completely spun me out like I'm talking normal. A normal person would react to that and be, oh, what's that? That's that. That's a bit odd, but we're talking like properly bad, like went to hospitals, like went like I had four private GP appointments in a week, like that's a lot of money, as much as anything, just like completely, completely, just wraps me up. Nothing on the outside matters, everything in here. I'm just like on this whole thing, this whole like intense. It feels like it's not even something I can really remember what happens. It's so intense when it happens and I'm kind of sat there thinking, oh my God, well, this is it, this is it, this is what I'm going to do. And then you kind of get these moments of like I know this is going to pass, I know this is going to pass, but what I need to do is x, y and z and then I can begin the kind of recovery process. It sounds crazy, it must sound bonkers, but like going through it is so tough.

And I remember it was like third of october, remember the day it wasn't even that long ago my mum was at my house looking after my son. I got home from work and I don't even think I've told my wife this one. It's like I got home from work and I don't even think I've told my wife this. I got home from work. My mum was looking after my son. She was like are you okay? And I was like no, no, no, no, no, this is really bad now. It's really bad.

I basically convinced myself that I had horrendous illnesses. Lump here checking my armpits, checking my groin, all that horrible stuff that you just you know, someone with no knowledge on medical stuff shouldn't be checking, because you dig, you find it's as simple as that. And I remember my mum being like she sat me down, she's like enough now. She's like what are you doing to yourself? I was like very triggered, very tired, very just like manic and I suppose like I'd been on like a bender, to be honest. And she was like you need to go and see a gpa sap. So I went in the morning. Even going for me is a massive thing, although I I hate it, but I have to go and la, la, la, when everything's fine, it's all good, it's stress, it's whatever. It was like a gland, was like basically like stuff that most people would shake off. But it just put me into this absolute fucking spiral, guys, and I think like having having to get the doctor say you're okay.

Step one speak to my therapist. Step two, and then kind of like, wangle my way out of it. And you know, fortunately I have the um the patience is probably the best way of putting it to know that it's going to pass. But also now I have the kind of experience to know what's going to help me and guide me, guide me out of that um, it's, it's. It's a hard one to even explain. I mean, do you guys have any experience with health anxiety or no? I'm aware. Yeah, like it's, it's mental, it's bonkers, like it really is bonkers. Because when I'm good like and I'm good right now, I've been good for a few months I kind of look at some of my behaviours, when I'm, you know, worrying about my health and I think, oh my God, why are you so worried? What are you so worried about? But it's easy to say when you're on the flip side, do you speak?

:: 38:00

about it with anyone? Yeah, Like forums, WhatsApp groups, people that come to you and say Forums.

:: 38:06

I'm self-excluded from every forum in the whole world, man.

For that exact reason, because otherwise, Dude, online is the worst place ever for someone with health anxiety. It really is, probably. You know I can only speak on behalf of health anxiety. I want to be really cautious with my words here, but like it's so easy to Google, for example, I've got a lump on my jaw and my armpit hurts I mean, you are finished at that point. The minute you've written that in online, you are finished. So for me, no, I don't use anything online.

I speak to people around me because seeking for reassurance is quite a big part of health anxiety. It's quite a big part of a lot of anxiety in general, isn't it Seeking reassurance? But you know, I'll kind of like be cutting someone's hair and I'll be like this weird thing happened. You're not going to believe and you're kind of waiting for someone to go. Oh no, that's all good. No, I don't want, I've had that before, don't worry about it. But then you get one person my God. And then your reassurance actually becomes the fucking worst thing in the world. The worst thing in the world.

:: 39:09

How does having health anxiety I know it's your personal experience how does having a four-year-old who's going to be ill a lot more than say you are comes home from nursery with the sniffles again? How does that manifest in that? Or is it just you? It's funny.

:: 39:19

It's interesting because, like people, germs and health related in that sense, like, as awful as this sounds, I couldn't give a monkey's about getting a cold or a cough or any other viruses that happen. That doesn't give me any fear. Interesting, I think. Like the fear comes from um getting sick, like properly sick, losing your um, your dignity, I suppose, is the word, your control it's. It's deeper rooted than germs.

Like, okay, you know bodhi coming home with the sniffles, or something like that, don't get me wrong. Like I want to make sure he's as healthy as possible and I want to. You know, I try my best to that he well, we try our best. He eats really clean, he's really healthy. Try not to give him too much processed stuff. Obviously we're not too neurotic with him, but we're, we're focused on him being as as healthy as he can be. Um, but but the, the kind of him coming home from school with stuff is something that I'm very chilled about, even me. Like, if I get a cold, I'm good, I'm fine, it's it's. It's the kind of sinister stuff that I'm not as into.

:: 40:29

Do you think stress and work pressures play a massive role in health anxiety? A hundred percent.

:: 40:34

Yeah, but I didn't know that until doing lots of work on myself, because I think of health, or I used to think of having health. Anxiety was the symptom or was the cause, if you like. It was the health anxiety was the issue, is how I used to think of it. But it's actually not. To be honest, it's the, you know, it can the, the, the kind of timeline would be. Something major happens that triggers me into stress. Then I need something to worry about and it becomes health anxiety. It's not often. I mean, there's been occasions where there's been something that's I've like I said about my neck and I was, oh my god, and then I freaked out. It went that way. But but the majority of the time is that actually, yeah, I'm stressed, I'm tired, um, I'm triggered, if you like, by something, and then I react by being very anxious about my health.

Um, but you know, I do what I can now as a 32 year old male husband, dad, someone that has responsibilities, to put myself in the strongest position I can be every day when I wake up to to make sure that I don't have those, those low modes. Do you know what I'm saying? Because I think you know if I'm out partying every week. I'm going to be anxious, you know. So I made decisions about that area of my life and I made decisions about being healthier with my food and my diet. I've recently lost quite a bit of weight and made some changes to my kind of lifestyle. Who I surround myself with is a humongous one, huge. I protect myself and I protect my kind of, my peace, my sleep, all these things with everything. And you know, I'm like maybe two and a bit years into, like cold water most days, every day. I'm actually like I say that as a bit of a porky at the moment. I've actually had three weeks off.

I'm just gonna rest I'm gonna admit that to the room. But in normal times, yeah, I'm cold water every day for just a minute in my garden, um, and and things like that that I that I know help me so much. Um, I try my hardest to protect and you know. But the flip side of that is, when you're in a bad spiral, it's very easy to to self-destruct and be like, well, if I'm having a bad day, I'm not going to do that. So it's discipline isn't it.

:: 42:59

I might be wrong. Obviously I'm no psychologist. Oh god, a lot of what you said I am so far I can relate to and it from what I've heard so far, it almost seems like a lot of the time. You're in just this vicious cycle where, with your ADHD, two of the main symptoms are hypersensitivity to situations and emotional dysregulation. So Joe could say something to me. I could feel it five, six times more than the average person. That causes me to spiral out. Yeah, stress to build, and then a stressful situation can happen at work or at home or with a partner. And then from there you're trying to mask a lot of things because you're going home to a four-year-old and you're trying to cover for him, and then that can lead to health anxiety.

:: 43:42

Do you see it as almost yeah, no, I definitely do, I definitely do, I definitely do, I like I think one thing I'll say is that, like I'm actually I'm still, I'm one of these adult undiagnosed ADHD is at the moment, I mean, I am the cardboard cut out of ADHD, right. I just I just have, and it's something that is on my list for the new year to kind of explore and get that kind of of diagnosis, because I know that, as much as anything, it will put a lid on something that I need a lid on. You know, I don't even want to talk about medications and things like that right now. It's not something that I'd necessarily for or against. I would look into it and explore it. But, yeah, and what you say, like you know, someone can say the smallest thing to me, man, and it will stay with me for the whole day. And when you've got a lot of people, for example, that like work for you with you, that are your team, and one of them says one thing about one person, and it will stay with me for the whole day.

Or, you know, um, the heart, yeah, the, the sensitivity to certain topics can trigger me into like a whole kind of world of bother and I think like things that I think about and worry about. I would say like there's not another person in my life I could think. Worrying about the stuff I'm worrying about, you know I'm saying, and, like you know, that can be anything from god knows. I mean business stuff, money things, bank stuff, booking a flight, anything you know, like booking my appointments, come and be on a podcast with you guys. Like everything I do, I have to answer questions, questions, questions, and I think like even some of my closest people get frustrated with me with that. You know, like, because it is hard. It is hard if you don't get it. It's really really tough. I can't imagine how annoying it is.

Some of the things I do around the house and I mean, let's be really honest here, like even before bed. I have to, I don't have to. I choose to go into my garden and get in a in a in a hot tub or a cold tub of water and I sit in in an ice bath before I go to bed because I know it calms me down and it makes me sleep. Great right, but but to someone who's a constant I love that, by the way a constant like my wife, she must think, bloody heck, like he's got to do that to just go to sleep. Do you know what I'm saying? And I think, like I think it must be quite hard work, especially for someone whose personality is relaxed, but but, but you know, you are the the kind of product of the people you spend most time with, and I mean my best mate is diagnosed adhd.

My other friends are similar characters to me, you know, maybe undiagnosed, like, so, like, in many ways there's there's a lot of positives to all these things that I'm slating in my character. I'm sat there going this, this, this, this, but actually, you know, being someone who is in touch with their emotion is something that I'm very proud of and something that I use as a credit to myself every day. And being detailed, you know, then goes into my business and my work ethic and things like that. So you know, I don't want to totally write myself off here Like I'm winging it, I'm still going and I'm doing all right, but like I think you know, if you said to me today you could take this pill and I don't literally mean medication, but you can swallow this pill and you can be a constant would I take the pill? I don't know, I actually don't know if I would. I don't know if I would. I don't think you would.

:: 47:05

No, I don't know if I would, because your wife would thank you for getting in the ice bar before bar, because it would be a nightmare if you didn't get in it. Yeah, so these things that you were doing to help yourself, she would say, no, no, get in the ice, because you're a far better person to sleep next to when you do go in it versus when you don't. So your colleagues at work, diversity that you've got makes you the person that you are, which makes you the good husband, the good father, the good work person to work with. All those great things that you have as a result of that your friends would thank you for as well If you didn't have those things and swallowed that red pill then they wouldn't be there.

:: 47:38

But then the other question is what about Bodhi? If I could at this point, could I protect him forever on it? Yeah, I would 100% protect him forever on it, yeah, I would 100. Like it doesn't even enter a conversation for me, you know, if I I think, um, his personality is is very much like me, right, and I think that, um, I think that there's there's things I can see already he's, he's very similar to me, but I really hope that, because he's got my wife and me, I think she'll fit Perfect balance. Yeah, I hope so, man, perfect balance.

:: 48:14

I wanted to ask you quickly on, because you mentioned therapy a few times. Yeah, as someone who's gone through therapy a few amount of times, I'd ask you what your key takeaways would be for anyone who's either thinking about starting it or in the process of doing it.

:: 48:25

Yeah, uh, here's what I'd say different people react to different people. You know, like someone that works for me might not work for you, and vice versa. And I think, like for a long time I kind of threw money at it when I even when I was younger, when I couldn't afford to. I'd like remember like seeing this one guy on like wimple street and I was thinking, oh my god, if he's up here, then he's obviously the man that I need to see. And I like sat looking out of his office window, like literally like you see in the movies, and I thought, and then it didn't work and I was like, oh no, the guy that I've just spent my month's wage on it didn't bloody work.

But then, you know, I came across a lady that I. I was recommended her by an old colleague and, honestly, I think the first time I saw her I was maybe 20 years old and I'm 32 now and I still speak to her, probably at least once a week. Our relationships definitely changed. You know, she's kind of a friend now. I still use her services there's still a transaction because I think that's really important when I'm.

Unfortunately, I've kind of in the last 12 months, I kind of got to this point where at the beginning of this year, I kind of probably was a little bit naive and thought, oh, my god, I've cracked it, I'm good, and like I think that's why the couple of rough times I've had this year have been maybe felt worse than than than before, or felt like the worst ones ever, that kind of thing. Um, because, because you know, therapy is a work in progress and I think, like you know, our physical health and mental health and life is a work in progress, right? So, um, for me it's just about I use like tekken you guys are probably too young for tekken, but like keeping the power bar as high as possible is just the most important thing in the world and I think, like, if you're, if you're running on zero and having therapy to get you halfway back to normal, that chips down real low. And I think, just like keeping that therapy even when you're feeling good and this is a reminder to myself right now, to be honest, therapy even when you're feeling good and this is a reminder to myself right now, to be honest Like even when you're feeling great, which in the last couple of months, I felt amazing, I felt back to myself, having therapy in these times is probably just as important, if not more important, than when you're feeling low. But yeah, I think, like my key takeaways from it is find someone that you know, or find someone that you like and that you trust, find someone that's convenient.

I don't necessarily think that online is the way to do it myself. That's just my personal preference. I make sure that I try and go to my appointment because I think the actual inconvenience in your day going and making intention and blocking a part of your calendar out to do it is important. Um, and I think you know, keeping it regular and consistent, man. But but again, big reminder to myself, you've been just saying all of that. I'm probably going to finish and book an appointment good ball set mate amazing.