InsideAMind of Jamie Clements - Self Acceptance, Breathwork, "Find The Others..." | #30

:: 00:00

Welcome back to the podcast. We are in a new studio today. Let us know what you think of it down below, with Jamie Clements for a part two about everything breathwork, his goals going into 2025 and one really important topic, and that's self-acceptance. We hope you enjoy the podcast. If you want to get in contact with Jamie, all of his links will be down below.

:: 00:25

Also having me back. Guys. It's always a nice sign when you get invited back somewhere, so it's good to be back what's been new with you the last six months?

:: 00:34

I think it's been may or march?

:: 00:36

no yeah, six months. I think 2024 has been a interesting year and I'll speak about my own, 2024 but it feels like it's been quite across the board for people that I sit working with and friends that I've spoken to, which is felt like quite a gnarly year, a bit of a grind at points, like really just one of those years that has flown by like it feels like it's disappeared but at the same time like it's dragged and so, um, yeah, a really challenging year for me at points, for various different reasons, found myself not not so much losing myself but just falling into, I think, a bit of autopilot of like things were just happening. I didn't feel particularly inspired, I didn't feel particularly creative, I just felt like I was going through the motions a little bit and so noticed that happening myself, probably July, august time and decided to take a bit of action and felt really called to explore and adventure and get out in the world. I think that was a real thing for me. I was like, how do I actually it's like we were talking about before we came on air like a lot of time spent in my own head. I'm very good at that, I can do that, that, but actually go and live a little bit more, and a bit of a realization that in my early 20s, my late teens, I didn't do a huge amount of that.

I was at uni, I was playing rugby, I was doing a lot of stuff that was close to home and I didn't have that time to really go and explore. And I don't I'm avoiding the phrase find myself, but it is, yeah, without using it, but that is kind of what we're talking about. And so september, october of this year, spent a little bit of time finding myself and reconnecting back to some new parts of myself and some old parts of myself, with some travel and some different experiences. And now, you know, we're beginning of de, so wrapping up the year, but feel in a really good place personally, but also professionally. A lot has changed with the business. I've brought a couple of people into to work with me on the business and help to grow and expand things and step into a bit of a new phase with it. And, yeah, in terms of where things are at, feeling more empowered and more inspired than I have done for a long time, in both my personal life and and my work as well.

:: 02:50

So, yeah, here, a good time, rather than three, four months, where it would have been a pretty dry conversation I reckon I can really relate to what you said a minute ago in terms of the year dragging and stalling and going quite quick. What do you put that down to? Because I can really relate to the stalling nature of it. What do you put that down to? I?

:: 03:09

think that to me feels like what often happens with our experience of time, when we're not particularly connected to ourselves or the bigger picture of kind of the universe. It seems to you. You know, we're going through the motions, the days seem to go really quickly, but the months seem to drag and it's like, oh, what did I actually get done? And that's day in, day out. You're like, oh, I did stuff, but did I? And sort of just before you know it, a month has gone, two months have gone, and you look back and you're like, where did that time actually go? What have I achieved?

There's a lack of, I think, clarity around what actually gets done and why. Why that happened has happened. On kind of a broader level I'm curious about, because I it really felt around the sort of time september, october time I don't know whether it's the end of the year approaching or something in the air a lot of people seem to go I've woken up, like something's woken me up, and it's like we were sleeping our way through the summer for whatever reason, and all of a sudden we're back online again. So, yeah, I've really noticed it in myself, but also in a lot of other people as well. Yeah, big time it's christmas time.

:: 04:21

This will be released between christmas and the new year. You're saying you're in the best headspace possible. There's going to be a lot of people at christmas time who are the opposite, and I'm kind of one of them. I feel like the last few months I've been good, I feel okay at the moment, but I felt I've we talked about this last week sad seasonal addictive disorder that's coming. I feel like up the the lead up to christmas is always quite good. It's something to look forward to with your family and friends. That drop off I get after christmas is really bad. That's when this episode's going to come out. What advice would you give to people in that sort of gap, that sort of mundane gap where nothing's really going on from what you've learned in previous years and going into this one?

:: 04:59

yeah, it's interesting. I I've historically not enjoyed Christmas myself. I think it has legacy negative connotations from family disruption and separation and things like that, so it's never been a particularly joyful time of year for me. It feels different now, I think for a number of different reasons. My niece is four, my partner's daughter is seven, so there's sort of that youthful excitement and that magic injected back into into the festive period.

Um, I think the biggest challenge that people face around that time, in that sort of dead period around christmas and when we're not working, is it really shines a light on how little we have allowed ourselves to pause previously because it's a forced pause and so we realize how distracted we've been from all of the shit that we've been avoiding and so in that period it's very easy to go oh, I haven't got my work to distract me. I haven't got as much socializing socializing of a different form, I guess, but as much socializing in its normal form. We have those Lund days like the 27th, 28th, 29th of december. All my long is real long days and that can be lovely and I've learned to enjoy it, but not always and I think it.

If someone is going into that period dreading it, I guess two sides to it. Can you get ahead of it and allow yourself to find a bit more balance and a bit more rest in the lead up to it, so those longer periods don't feel quite so jarring? But also make plans, plan ahead. You know one thing that I've done this year my partner's suggestion, because I think she sees it from the outside, looking at me over the Christmas period as well, she has said well, why don't you hire a car for that period, so you have an out, so you can get away and get away, or you want to, because I think that for me, the stuckness is what makes me feel trapped and I go, oh god, like I don't have an option here. It's claustrophobic, yeah, and so that for me is a big one is actually can you allow yourself to set it up in your favor rather than just allowing it to unfold?

you're just pre-empting, yeah, and and managing your expectations. I think we go. It's the most wonderful time of year. It's like it doesn't have to be. It's just another month and so that can be good or bad, depending on what you make of it. And so, not expecting it to be just because it's christ, not expecting yourself to feel great and actually going, what do I still need to do to take care of myself to feel great?

And then the other piece of it for me, I think a lot of people feel pressure through that time and towards the end of the year, around all of the things that we haven't accomplished, that we said we were going to accomplish and that, for me, is probably the single biggest factor for a lot of people in that pain and that fear.

And if you're feeling that, then I just say to people it's just another day, it's just another week, it's just another month. You could start today, you could start tomorrow, you could start in January, you could start in February. Whatever it is that you want to do, you know time goes on, time continues to go on. Want to do? You know time goes on, time continues to go on. It doesn't matter. You know the calendar year only has as much meaning as we attribute to it. And so, I think, just taking the pressure off, but also being disciplined in how you set that period up for yourself, in whether that's a traditional or non-traditional way to almost set yourself up for success, rather than just amble your way into failure, yeah, I wanted to answer.

:: 08:30

the answer might be exactly the same, but how would you suggest? Coming from someone who doesn't drink, and someone who doesn't drink sort of intermittently doesn't drink, yeah, so city season's approaching and I'm neither or Either or yeah, I'm a heavy drinker, or nothing, or you or nothing or nothing. So someone like that, how would you manage? Someone who is going into the season, maybe feeling the pressure of socializing too much and the overindulgence of potentially food and booze, which you and I can obviously detest it?

:: 08:51

yeah, it's, it's a big question. I think I always refer back to around this stuff two times in the last five years where I have stopped drinking. So probably about four years ago, three years ago I think I made a decision on new year's day not the best day, it's a very big decision on a hangover that I was gonna. Because of the hangover I think it was a build-up of things I just sort of just sat there going I feel shit, but also I didn't really enjoy that anyway. Um, and that's always been the thing for me being drunk isn't a nice feeling for me. It doesn't give me what it gives to some other people. I understand that there's some people who love that feeling. I maybe question whether they actually do, but for me it's never been that. And I remember going to the pub of kind of a couple months later with some friends of mine from uni and I said I wasn't drinking and I got a lot of pushback. I'm like oh why, why not? A lot of questions, and I felt that and eventually, sort of unknowingly or not, gave into that and I kind of went back to drinking a little bit here and there. And then this is probably about two years ago, same thing happened, but I felt very differently about it. I was very, I was sure of my decision in a way that I hadn't been before, and I realized in hindsight, looking at those two examples, that the people I was faced with, who were questioning it or who I was with, were feeding off my own uncertainty or certainty around it. And actually the second time, because I was sure of my own decision, I didn't get the same questions, whether that was because things had moved on a little bit culturally and less people are drinking, or it was purely down to how I was holding myself in that decision. Um, that made a big impact for me because there were less questions and so you feel less pressure and so you're less likely to fall back into those those ways.

So I think that feeds into, I guess, the point I'm trying to make, which is that if you don't want to, then you need to be comfortable with whatever feedback you get on that and not allow yourself to be swayed by it. Because that's the really challenging thing, I think, for a lot of people is that sort of peer pressure and just being certain in your decision and also in your why and, on a more practical level, almost knowing what your response would be if somebody did ask why not? If they really pushed back and they're like, oh, go on, have a drink. Like why aren't you either having a stock response that you feel comfortable and certain in, or actually just being comfortable enough to say no, I don't want to? And I think there's a piece in that as well around, just again, being very intentional around where you're spending your time and energy. It's not saying cut these people out your life. It's just saying choose wisely where you are going to spend your time and energy, particularly through this period, because there's a lot of social output, um, and so actually just going you know, for me this will be before this episode comes out.

But, um, this weekend I've got um christmas kind of lunch and get together with my mates from school. Do it every year, matters to me because I don't see him as often as I used to, and we do it without fail every single year. I know it will be a heavy one for a lot of people and I'm not planning on drinking, and so I'm already starting to think, without stressing myself out what, what's my, what's my plan? Which bits of this am I gonna get to go to engage it with, not navigate. So navigate exactly and, and without stressing out about it, just know that it's okay to make a decision.

You know, for me it tends to be very much at the point where it takes a turn into being, you know, very much a boozy.

Lots of people are very drunk and that side of things where I'm like, okay, cool, like that's, that's my line, like I I'm no longer enjoying being here, so I'm gonna still wear, yeah, um, and I think that's the best advice I can give to people, because you just have to be. It's a self-acceptance and the self-confidence that comes from self-acceptance piece. If you allow it to make it mean something about you as a person that you're not doing the same as everybody else, or there's a comment that's made or a question that's asked. If you let that wobble you, that's where the foundations start to shake a little bit and so it's actually just going. I've got me, I know me, I'm okay with this and that's all I need to know. So I think, just really leaning into self-acceptance and then, beyond that, finding spaces where maybe it is more of the norm not to have a drink or to do something different. Um, so, yeah, I think that's kind of how I'm approaching it, at least that's not.

:: 13:29

I think the main thing I take is sort of delivering that message confidently. I think that's where I've gone wrong a lot of the time is I'm like I just don't really want to drink, and that not having confidence in me, saying that everyone questions that you're right, I hadn't thought about. I also find one thing with saying you're not drinking is everyone automatically assumes there's something wrong. A lot of the time there's actually nothing wrong. I just don't want to drink. I'm in a good headspace and I have more fun not drinking. That's the problem I find a lot of the time is I almost drink sometimes when I'm out because I don't want people to be like what's wrong. It actually makes that be a problem for me.

I'm a massive overthinker. Someone's like you're right, you're okay and I'm actually fine. I don't know why that puts me in like the hot. It's a great question, isn't it? You have to be honest, I actually am fine. And then they're like are you there? You're not drinking, fine, narrows your culture. It can be overthinkers. This is just madness. I think. Delivering that confidently, being like I'm actually fine, I just really don't feel like drinking, I feel really good at the moment. Yeah, I think that sort of switch in wording so simple, but it's probably a big mistake. And where I've gone in the past, especially with my friends, is that if you kind of beat around the bush, you know you give them room to kind of guess what you're doing well, this is it.

:: 14:42

I think it's there's a way. I feel like there's a way to do it, because it's also in how you respond to not make them feel like you're high and mighty. Because, yeah, it is completely. And I think this is where spiritual communities, sober communities, personal development communities can go wrong. A lot of the time it's it's preaching, and it's communities can go wrong a lot of the time it's it's preaching and it's hierarchical and it's self-righteous to be like even you know to confidently deliver.

That doesn't need to involve any implication that drinking is bad or drinking is wrong, like I'm all for. Let's look at the facts and look at what is, you know, good and bad and the intention behind it. And I always ask people to check in with their intention behind doing anything drinking working out whatever it might be, and if there's something underlying that that is maybe not what they want it to be, then of course you know, do something about it. But actually it's not my place to decide what other people should be doing and I'll respect their decision to drink as much as I hope they'll respect my decision not to, and I think that's good point.

There's a cultural piece and a challenging cultural piece around, like there's also that cultural piece that you guys touched on which is about there is still a bit of a narrative here of there's something wrong with you or like if you're sober that's because you had a problem or whatever it might be, and so I think that's something that needs to shift. But it also comes from people modeling that you can go out and not drink, still have a good time, still spend time with your friends. I think it again for me feeds a lot into what I see in personal development culture of like you have to reject your old self and your old friends and your old life just because you're moving in a different direction, and actually I don't buy into that. It's like you shouldn't just cut people out just because you live a slightly different life. There's more to friendships than exactly what your interests are at any given point in time.

:: 16:33

I love that. I read a really interesting study the other day. Uh, joe and I talked about off camera. It was saying alcohol consumption's gone down 40. The mental health problems have gone up 40 and they were talking about the correlation to it. I'm sure there's not a direct correlation, but I found that really interesting because I thought about the other side of things is how much of alcohol and how much you consume.

So if you're working in the city or in a stressful environment, is alcohol sort of a numbing substance for your mental health? In a way, is it a coping mechanism for a lot of people who don't actually want to deal with their problems? And I actually thought about that and I really got into the sort of like gist. But I was talking with my dad and we were talking about and he was like, yeah, a lot of people he used to work with and you know they used it as a coping mechanism because they were so stressed all the time. And he was like I can see why there's a correlation and I'm sure those numbers aren't just because 40% of people stop drinking, but I find a really interesting one the discussion behind it, because that's a lot of people's out, just like smokiest cigaretters as well, like if they're stressed, having that cigarette, having that nicotine hit. I find it really interesting. But I think the thing that raised the biggest factor me on that is how stressed out people must be if you take those substances away cigarettes, alcohol, you know, porn, whatever it is.

Anything that's going to give you that dopamine hit is actually just shows, I'd say, pretty comfortably, 80 of the population is probably struggling quite heavily with something, but we just mask it through different ways and that's why I think you know I wanted to come on the self-awareness topic and people becoming more self-aware of that.

They're drinking less or, you know, they're smoking less. I feel like I've seen less vaping recently. I don't know how anyone else has seen, but I feel like we went through a phase where it was just like every single person I was talking to was vaping. I don't know if people coming more self-aware of that and trying to take it out figure it out, but that's something I massively focus on is, if I'm in a bad headspace, I feel like I'm self-aware enough to be like please don't go out and get smashed right now because it's going to screw you so bad you're going to wake up in the morning with the worst anxiety whatever and people becoming more self-aware. But I find that a very interesting sort of topic. They're sort of 40 down, 14 up, and I'd like to see what the other graphs would be of things like cigarettes, where there's a correlation there.

:: 18:48

I'd caveat it by saying also that young people are drinking less, but I feel like I'm so much worse off them. There's a general consensus that young people certainly with the clients that I train and their kids don't really drink that much and yet their mental health across the board is so much worse than when I was at school. Like it's just, it's yeah, it's unbelievable. So I don't know whether the lack of drinking in younger people certainly, but yet their mental health across the board in schools and universities etc.

:: 19:12

Is just unparalleledly worse than when I was I wasn't university like yeah, but I agree, I don't know whether that's as any it raises a really interesting topic, I think, which is, um, there's a few different avenues that could go down, but I think one thing that it raised for me is around this idea that are there more reported cases of mental health challenges as a result of more awareness around mental health when we were talking about it, there's more conversation. That's probably a part of it. The world, in a lot of ways, is is contributing to that as well, in terms of tech, in terms of social media, in terms of conflict, everything. There's a lot of contributing factors there, and so it's sort of are we seeing more people struggling? Potentially? Are we seeing more people talking about they're struggling? Very likely, and so I don't have the answer, but I do think it paints a really interesting picture around when we do take away the substances, but also and this is something I like talking about as well which is a lot of people have pivoted.

You know, you look at wellness world. A lot of wellness founders, I know, were the club promoters before, and it's now, oh, you were addicted to coke and now you're addicted to ice baths, and it's like, okay, well, what's the next thing? Yes, ice baths are healthier than cocaine, but what are you masking? What are you still covering up by doing the thing running, you know, ultramarathon onto the next ultramarathon, onto seven ultramarathons, onto 20 ultramarathons. So my best, I, I don't like running, so this is why I like asking this question but like what are you running from? Yes, like I, I appreciate that it's a much healthier output, but there's also excess in a lot of what is going on in wellness, in health, in all of this stuff. It's like we've just gone. We're not unhealthy anymore, but we're still covering something up. We're still not able really to sit with ourselves. We're still not really able to just go. Oh, who am I and what am I and how do I feel if I take away all that shit? And yes, to a degree life goes on and you know we all have our vices. You know I, I catch myself. Now I go yeah, I feel like shit. No wonder I'm eating so much chocolate. Fine, I'm not going to beat myself up for that.

And I would say to everybody else like, don't beat yourself up for doing things you enjoy, but at the same time, be aware of what you might be covering up and what you might be distracting yourself from, because I think that's where it's important just to go inwards again and just go. Okay, you know, I've noticed that I'm leaning more in this direction and doing these things more, so maybe I need to spend a bit of time slowing down and sitting with myself and seeing where that might be coming from, or writing, or talking to a therapist or whatever it might be. Whatever people's methods are, um, but I do also feel so. To come to your point, tom, as well, I do wonder if there is an inevitable part of increased self-awareness that first leads to some pain, and the first leads to like you've been really distracted and numb and you've kind of been okay.

Then you've stopped distracting yourself and numbing yourself and you've lifted the lid and you've gone inwards and all of a sudden you're confronted with all of the stuff that you were pushing down and people go oh, but I thought I was going to feel better. It's like you. You are, but you've got to go through this, this piece, first, and so I think that's probably a big part of it. What we're seeing right now is actually we've got a world and a system and a structure that I'd argue isn't really fit for purpose, for human health and happiness. It's not. That's not what it's set up for it's set up for profit and gdp and bottom line bullshit and people who are no longer willing just to take that as a given and do all the stuff that is inherently bad for them and when those two clash, it's sort of a world that's not fit for purpose, combined with people who are choosing to no longer numb themselves out and go.

Oh, I feel a bit crap because it's minging out there and it's intense and it's fast paced and you know, all of the tech and everything else is working against my biology. Um, am I kind of in a wiring, and so how do we navigate that?

:: 23:32

I think that's the question and the journey that a lot of people are going through now I think it's so interesting, when you touch on acceptance and awareness, how much of that is just down to experience and life.

:: 23:42

I think it's almost entirely down to like just got to do it. You know, I think that's what again, it's another word and phrase that I'm kind of sick of but you just got to do the work. Like that, to me, is the work no end point, no destination. It's just constant iteration, learn, integrate, continue and enjoy it along the way if you can. And I think the awareness piece is a really fascinating one because it feels like a very necessary part of the process. It's almost like you have to go there to then come back from there. I always refer and not a religious man, but I always refer to the prodigal son story. With this, it's like you've got to go out into the world, think you know everything, realize you don't, and then realize that everything you're looking for was here the whole time. And so, yeah, I definitely feel like that's, that's a big part of it. Yeah.

:: 24:41

That's why I think I find me personally I don't know how you feel about this is I find talking to young people really hard for that exact reason, because you can't tell a 16, 17-year-old, 18-year-old, even a 21-year-old, that you just got to get to the other end of the line before you realise actually it wasn't all that bad in the first place. You've learned so much on those experiences which I find now, at 30, if I knew all these things now, I wouldn't struggle when I was 21, but I had to go through those things to get to the other side under the same 12 hours conversation is really difficult yeah, and I think that's where I sort of come back to in my work.

:: 25:11

A lot of the time working with people, they're sort of they're turning to me asking questions and looking for an answer, and the answer is keep going inward, go through, yeah, go go in meet yourself. I don't know who you are, so go meet yourself and then integrate that and move forward. And I think that's the journey that I try and sort of facilitate is like be the barriers around the outside and hold people together and in place but give them space to figure it out for themselves, because if you're taking the answers from somebody else, then that's not your answer and that's just going to leave you in the same place that you were before. But you, it's like grasping onto false certainty and going, oh, yeah, that's the answer. And then you're like, oh, that's gone, yeah, there's the answer. And it's just kind of you're grasping at straws, um, clutching at thin air a lot of the time, and I think some people get there, I guess, to come to your point around like, is it just part of the process?

I think some people will naturally get there quicker, sure, either, because the depths of the darkness are deeper, yeah, and so they're forced there, and I get a lot of people coming through my doors at work going oh you're lucky, you learned this all so early. I went here. Do you have the learning? Yeah, I am still learning, but also at 24, I didn't want to be here anymore and that forced me to learn. And so actually, yes, I'm lucky and I feel fortunate and and this is a fascinating piece of it I think like the gratitude that you can hold for some of the worst things in your life and a lot of what they taught you, and also grieving the life that I could have lived had I never gone through those things yeah I often think, like, what would my life have looked like had I not experienced those that pain would I have, you know?

and it's a kind of fruitless question, because my life is what my life is. But I often wonder, I'm like, what if I hadn't gone through that? Would I've had a really nice, cushy, comfortable life and I'd never open that box and actually I'd just sort of be okay. And I know people like that where I'm like they just have had quite a nice time and I'm really happy for them. Um, but I I almost feel like it stays somewhere in the middle and actually, if you bust open that basement of the darkness, you also get the capacity to go kind of up here if you're able to get through it. And so, yeah, I think it's a necessary part of the process, which is a. You know it's not a very marketable thing when you're thinking about business and thinking about that side of things, but for me these aren't really questions of business. This is the big questions of life, of like, where are we all heading and what are we all doing?

Right now, and I think particularly potently right now, post-pandemic, we were all confronted so strongly by our mortality and by our health or lack of, and, as a result, it seems like we collectively have gone obsessed with health, we're like obsessing with wellness, we're obsessing with personal development, but I think for me, a part of that has been a a counterbalance or a counter reaction to what we faced through that time. It's like, oh, we were really confronted by those dark thoughts and feelings and experiences, that it's understandable, that we've gone right the way to the other end of the spectrum and I now think we're trying to navigate back to the middle of, like how can we be okay and understand ourselves and live a nice, happy life and a healthy life, what? Without getting obsessed with it and just like stuck to it?

:: 28:39

there's so much. I find, with that sort of self-awareness side, and I don't know if you see, a lot of these instagram videos or tiktok videos are like start your business, don't work a nine to five, like, be financially free, things like that. I'm just honestly like having a business myself. You know you can work in nine to five or if you actually do have a business, you know you're not going to work an hour or two a day. In my opinion, you're pretty much working 24 7 a lot of the time and it's very stressful and it's all these things that are put on social media and it, like you said, it's extremes. Right, it's either one end of the spectrum or the other. There doesn't seem to be any balance in between, or it.

I found that very tough from watching and like seeing friends at the moment who go down different routes and like I, I don't know, it doesn't, it doesn't annoy me, but I think I think a lot of people are becoming more self-aware of the fact that these videos are actually quite damaging for a lot of people.

You know, going from the point of make sure you don't go nine to five or don't go to university or you know well all these things. So I find them just very stressful because that's what's getting fed to a lot of the younger generation at the moment, and I've talked to like 16 17 year olds who would be at my cricket club wherever, being like, yeah, I've started a business and like I'm like okay, like it's just a lot of factors to it on that side. That really bugs me. You, being a business owner yourself, what's your kind of view on that as well? Not annoyed, I can't get the right word for it, but there's definitely something that I'm like you guys need to be quite careful here, because it's a slippery road if you can get it wrong yeah, I sometimes I very much land on on your side that I think I often wonder when I try and zoom out and think about patterns.

:: 30:26

And um, I had brilliant guy Jamie wheel say history doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme. And that's great, I love that, it's brilliant. It's like it's not the same thing but it's it's. It looks awfully familiar in terms of patterns and I wonder it's like it's not the same thing but it's a it's. It looks awfully familiar in terms of patterns. And I wonder and I believe I suppose it's probably a better way to put it that whatever is clearly not working as a part of a current system. What comes next is the polar opposite of that. So it's like the.

What we experienced, or what I experienced when I was sort of in my teens, was this the only option is to go and work in a corporate, go big nine to five, make you money and make enough to retire and have a nice life like that. It was very like cookie cutter follow that path. We realized that that wasn't what we wanted in a lot of cases and that that wasn't working for everyone. And so it's now everyone has to work for themselves. It's, as you said, one end of the spectrum. The other and I think that's what we're seeing now is this flip to the other side, and I often get people reaching out to me saying, hey, really thinking about getting into breath work or wellness and, um, you've done all right for yourself in that space, so can we have a chat like, can I? You know, pick your brains, pick your brains. It's always the words um, and like, sure, yeah. And these people, super enthusiastic, come onto a call. I'm always happy to speak to them. They go. You know what would your advice be? And I think it's partly because of advice that I got that I found incredibly valuable, but also what I genuinely believe and feel, which is I say make sure this is what you want, otherwise you're going to be in for a really rough ride. And obviously there's a level if you're never quite 100% sure. But be as sure as you can that this is what you really, really want. And I sometimes feel like it takes a bit of the wind out of their sails because I try and position it as a reality check, not to be negative and not to kind of gatekeep, but actually to be like it's not for everyone.

My relationship with breathwork has changed massively since being someone who just enjoyed it as a practice to now being someone who runs a business around it in a lot of good ways and not so good ways, like I struggle to lie in someone else's breathwork session and enjoy it just for what it is, without my mind, at some point during that session going, oh I quite like that or didn't like that, and I can't. That's you know. That's an illness that I now have to an extent, because I understand why it's there, but I also, um, would prefer if it wasn't. And so, with that, I think I carry that into this broader conversation, which is that this hustle culture, entrepreneur, getting rid of nine to five piece. I understand the intentions behind it, like carve your own path, create your own reality, live your own life. Those are all things that I will shout from the rooftops, and that is very much part of my message.

However, that doesn't mean you have to work for yourself. The thing that I try and support people in breaking away from is living a life that isn't theirs. So that's where I found myself. I was doing, I ended up in jobs that I didn't enjoy because I didn't realize there was any other way. I was living based on what I thought I should be doing, and the freedom that I found over the last seven, eight years has been breaking away from exactly that, and my path has looked the way that it has in terms of working for myself and doing what I do, but for somebody else, it doesn't need to be that. It might be that what you want to do is, you know, work for a small business, or you know, build your own business, work for a big corporate and then have a really rich, full life outside of that, or have a side hustle that's actually a side hustle and remains a side hustle, with no intention of making it a full-time business. I agree, it sounds so like it really sounds stupid coming out of my mouth to say to people like, build a life that you like. That's it, completely agree.

Know yourself and this is comes back to the awareness piece. Know yourself well enough to know what that is, and I think that's the first step that a lot of people don't do and need to do, and then you can figure it out and you can design it and you can build it from wherever you are, in whatever way you you want to. Um, and then there's also, I guess the reality checks within that for myself, of going. Some people have bills to pay, some people have children to care for, some people have a bunch of different factors that stop them from doing those things.

But being able to understand what that life that you truly want looks like is just the first step, and then you can do a little bit of that and you can just tweak yourself back in a slightly more positive direction and life is going to improve, and so I think that's the piece that that sticks for me is actually we need to move away from thinking that my answer is your answer, is your answer is someone else? Like that's the bit that I think we fall down on, and that's where social media is incredibly guilty, because there's a lot of people saying they have the answer and a lot of people looking for answers, and it's just a match made in hell. Yeah, it is so. Yeah, and it's just a match made in hell. Yeah, it is so.

:: 35:40

Yeah, yeah, I just think I completely agree on that point of like it doesn't matter if you work for a small business or a startup or whatever. I've seen some pretty cool businesses where I'd be like I would love to work there. Like cool people, cool community, like everyone works, works out, looks good, feels good. They're like mental health checks, like everything, and I'm like that's someone who I'd want to work for. I feel like a lot of the time when you start a business this is coming from someone who's started business and has a business has done for the last year and a half is it's very lonely. Yeah, it's very lonely. And I feel a lot of the time when you start a business is you have a vision that no one else can really see and the hardest bit is with friends or with family or wherever it is. They'll always tell you their two cents and everything oh, why don't you try this? Or why don't you try this, not knowing you already tried it failed, and you wake up and you fail most days and then you find a way and you pivot and then you break through and you go through to the next layer. That loneliness piece, I think, is something that no one really talks about. In that space. You're pretty much it's you and your mind versus you know a world of sharks, pretty much, who you're going to have to go up against a lot of the time, and I think that's the problem is.

I love small businesses. You know teams of 10 or whatever it, where you can almost do loads of different roles. If I would go back again now and I'm still young and I still could do this if the business doesn't go as planned, get into someone like that. Learn from everyone and I think that's the biggest thing when it comes to anything, say if it's someone joining your team learn from you as a person, mentally, with work on every aspect, how you work, how disciplined you are. I think when you're doing it yourself and you're just touching and feeling can really suck if you're not mentally strong enough and joe, being self-employed as well, you can say that too is if you get it wrong. You know that sucks. But if you watch someone else do it in an environment that you'd love to turn up to every day and then you go and emulate it yourself further down the line, I think that you know for me I hate authority.

:: 38:04

And there's some part of me that you know it's equal parts self-doubt and self-delusion Like I truly believe that if I care enough about something, I can make it happen, and I think that's implicit in any kind of ambition and vision that people have. And I think that's implicit in any kind of ambition and vision that people have, and I find it really difficult to take myself away from that when I do care about it, whereas other people will be much better at being a cheerleader for someone who has a vision or being the operator for someone who has a vision. If you can buy into somebody else's vision and and really tap into your own strengths and and elevate a meaningful vision through that, then great. It's just about knowing what makes you tick. Um, and I think there is the loneliness piece. I think there's also and it comes back to our conversation about alcohol earlier you've got to be, you've got to be sure of yourself, whilst also being able to fail fast, learn fast and not take it to heart.

I think I've saw a beautiful quote I can't remember who it's from that said um, if everyone understands what you're doing, then you're too late. I think that, to me, is always reassuring, because I'm like, if I, if there are too many yeses and everyone's like, yeah, that's really obvious, why haven't you done that yet? I'm kind of like, oh, that's a shame. I need a couple of people to be like that's not been done before. That's a weird use case. I'm like perfect, perfect, because now I can do something that I believe is possible, that hasn't been done before, and that, to me, that's that's the innovation, that's authenticity, that's that's ambition and that's creativity.

Um, but there is, yeah, the loneliness piece as well, which I think is the days where the self-doubt is loud, and we all have those days, I know them all too well, um, where you're trying to convince yourself that your idea is good and you're hearing someone else go, are you sure about this? And I go, sucks, today I'm really not sure about this. Like, I'm really not, like I can sit here today and say some of the stuff that we're looking at creating for the new year I'm so confident in and so passionate about and so certain of, and you know, one of the days last week I was like, oh, not sure about this, is it? Is it what I think it's going to be? And I think it's just the difference in energy. It's a difference in where you're at personally and allowing yourself those those ups and downs as well.

:: 40:34

Um, because it can be a yeah, a lonely place to to pull yourself out of all of the touch on that, and this is aimed at young people in particular but you're the sort of sense of self. How do you manage your sense of self and how would you encourage, maybe, young people to do the same in terms of they're really, really battling with what do I do and how do I do it?

:: 40:50

so. So I think two things um popped to mind instantly, which is we taught, I've got, even got a tattoo on my ribs. It says find the others. And it's from a um, not terence mckenna, timothy leary quote, and it's all about finding. You know your tribe, finding people that really resonate with you when you're authentic and bring the authenticity out of you. And I actually was thinking about that quote the other day and I was like we talk about finding the others, we talk about finding your passion, finding your purpose.

All of these things that are external to us, they all have one thing in common is that they are mirrors for us to find our authenticity.

They bring out of us the best version of ourselves, and that's why we like those people, that's why we like those things, that's why we like whatever it might be, and so I guess that actually covers both of the things that I wanted to say, which is that be willing to try and not find those things, but you have to try things in order to find those things, and so it's, whether it's jobs, whether it's passions, whether it's people, right, be very aware and tuned into how you feel around them. Am I having to pretend, consciously or unconsciously. Am I putting a mask up? Um, or am I just so at ease? Am I in flow? Am I at peace doing this thing?

And? And that that for me is is how I discern and this is kind of for me it's quite like a mathematical process in a way, or a logical process in a way of going like oh, that felt good, that didn't feel right, or that interaction felt great, that didn't. You know, I get with podcasts, you know you sit down with someone and you know within 10-15 minutes you're like oh, this is a good one, or this is just a going through the motions one james, still working out of the lights as well yeah, would you run more this video and, um, let's have that.

That, to me, is where you have to just be tuned into yourself and break away from this self-delusion and go. This is, I think, the trickiest thing, where you meet something or someone where, based on external factors and what you've heard and what you thought you should like, it was like I should, I'm supposed to like this thing or like this person or enjoy this, and you don't. That's the, that's the battleground where you go. Why don't I? Can I listen to myself and go against what I think I should be doing? Because that's where you lose yourself, is where you go. I, I should, I should, I should like this, I should like that, and I carry on doing it rather than being willing to, again comes back to the alcohol conversation.

Listen to what you really want and make a decision based on that, yeah, and there's a level of courage and a level of confidence that is needed for that. But that is also what builds confidence. That, to me, is like the single biggest route to confidence is choosing yourself time and time again and then you actually end up with a really rich, rounded life that you do like and you go oh funny that. I love that. Yeah, I love that. I think.

One final thing just on that for me presently is when we think about working for yourself, or working a nine to five is and I've definitely made an effort to break away from this myself is like be somebody outside of your work. You know, do things that have no relation to your work. Yeah, you know it sounds stupid, because you know I'm not a celebrity by any means. I'm not an celebrity by any means, I'm not an influencer by any means, but I love my jujitsu um club because no one knows who I am. No one cares. I've not had to talk about my work once. Man, I fucking love that. Like.

I go to a lot of places with my work and just my mates obviously, obviously like they know what I do, they know what I'm up to, and so, you know, conversations can very quickly become about that. And then you put on that slight work persona and you're like, oh yeah, this is what's going on, you know, blah, blah, blah. You talk the talk, you speak the language. But actually going to places whether that's traveling, like I love nothing more than being in a new city on my own where I know nobody and nobody knows me, because I just feel a sense of peace and freedom, and so that as well, like activities and spaces where you can be you without having to fight against prior expectations, with no knowledge of you, no mask and I think that's really powerful, just in general, is whether you're young, old, whatever it might be. Seeking that, like seeking spaces where you can be you, either to figure out who you are as a bit of a self-discovery process or like an amplification process of who you are as well.

:: 45:29

It's awesome to tell you what really interesting. I listened to um john cena talk. You know the wwe wrestler. He did a podcast with uh Shannon Sharp, who's an NFL titan, and he touched on everyone knowing who he is everywhere he goes. How draining. That can be rewarding, but draining those of you who don't know John Cena, which I'm sure maybe one of you, the ex-WWW wrestler, uh, he has the highest amount of make-a-wish foundation. Um like going through and executing them. He's done over 5 000, I think it is, which is insane. Incredibly humble guy.

But he said his favorite time he's ever had in the last 10 years was when he got in the car without his phone and he drove for 12 hours with no radio or anything and he stopped at diners along the way. He had his lunch. No one asked who he was and he was just him. He just listened to the car, didn't have the radio on and he was like that's the best I've ever felt in the last 10 years, because everywhere he goes, if he steps out the house, everyone's like you're john cena, or you can't see me, or this air, and he was like that feeling of just being normal. He was I. I grasp at that every day and I thought that was so interesting.

And it comes back to like being known everywhere. There's so much positives to it and you can do so many amazing things, but we are all human at the end of the day, and especially if you're quite an introverted person, like he is as well. Yeah, you know, I was talking to my girlfriend the other day and I'm not remotely well known, but again, as you said, when you go with friends or family, it's how's the podcast, how's the business? You know whatever it is, and sometimes it's not going well and you don't actually want to talk about it. And my girlfriend described me as introverted but with ADHD. So that sort of introverted mindset, but then has the ADHD traits as well, and I like my piece a lot of the time and I did a boxing class the other day.

t important things going into: 2025

:: 48:10

I think again, it's about getting out in the world and and being being willing to surprise yourself and find it in unexpected places. I think we think about and there's a lot of good that comes from this side of things as well but we think about I'll go join a men's group or I'll go find, you know, a almost specifically created space for community connection. I'm like great's, that's an option, but I actually think that in itself breeds a level of what we've just talked about in terms of people showing up in a certain way and and you have chosen to be here, so there's something that that means and we're sharing this thing rather than more organic, authentic connection where it's like oh we're both here doing jujitsu and that's our common ground, but we could be really different people.

And then it's learning to connect beyond the obvious. I think is is really valuable. Um, and then I do actually to sort of not go back on what I've said before, but build on it, those intentional spaces, I think, are a bit of a necessity at the moment. I think people are really longing for community and seeking it and searching for it and, again, I think it's a counterbalance to the extent of the disconnect that people are really now emphasizing those spaces where they can just go and be themselves and be seen for who they are and what they are in its simplest form, and there's a depth of connection that comes with that.

I see on my retreats all the time, people there who you know have shared more with these people in the last four days than they ever have done with their closest friends, and there's a level of connection that comes through that shared vulnerability that is now rare day-to-day but increasing because more people want it, and so I think, oh yeah, encourage people just to get out in the world and and also I, I'm guilty of this at times I, particularly in london, I think we're particularly bad at it. I think the bigger, the busier the place, the worse it gets. Is you drop or you stop looking for it. You know, I, I would. I walk around going oh, maybe I should smile at the next person that I walk past. I go, nope, not doing that, um, and then that just breathes into everybody.

I feel like you know there's obvious people who might not fall into this category, but I think a lot of people under the surface and it depends how thick the layers are between the surface and them, but under the surface they want, we all want that connection and so actually I try and really make an effort. If it's, you know, in a cafe that I go to a lot. If it's, you know, on the tube, where, like small places, I try and just engage in those little glimmers of connection, because I think that has a knock on effect, because they're then like, oh, maybe I should do that, and then it kind of builds from there. I've tried to do this.

:: 51:12

It's halfway on a train. I hated it, but I felt so good after I'd done it as a guy who traditionally you know him and I wouldn't ordinarily be friends like he had those really quirky outfit on and he sort of made eye contact with me as we're getting off the train. I said love your boots, mate. They're really cool. And you could see just what that meant to him and at the time I was like why am I telling him this? And yet you could see he was kind of like oh, this guy's saying I've got cool shoes on. I might have, like you said, the knock-on effect that might have had on the west of his day.

:: 51:36

I'm not saying I made his day, but he might have made someone else's day as a result of that so I think it's huge, it's, it's something that's so funny, because I was thinking about this on the way here, I was like I saw one bloke whose outfit I really liked and I was like I should, I should tell him and I didn't, and I regret it because I'm oh yeah, I know the impact it can have, because imagine, you know, for for all of us, how nice would it be for anyone, like anyone, to say anything nice about us, like selfishly.

:: 51:58

I felt good like I. I felt love. I felt really good about myself doing that. I was good, deed done.

:: 52:03

I can be horrible to these two well, it's a double one right, because there's nothing wrong with a bit of you know building yourself through that, because you're not doing any damage, you're only doing a positive to to somebody else. And so I think that's where I'm like. It's so again one of those stupid things that we have to try and be nice to each other, but actually being willing to drop some of that filter and just be like hey, that's cool shoes and someone just go, oh, and the shock on someone's face is just like it shouldn't be so shocking, but it is, unfortunately.

And so I'm really trying to as, as someone who is naturally, I'd say, probably more shy and introverted day to day, really trying to lean into that because it's. It's something I heard hormosi say which is around, um, confidence and really any trait is like list the 10 things that you believe confident people do and just start practice doing it. Like do those things, and so I'm like cool, I I want to be a, you know, slightly more extroverted, slightly more confident person when I'm out and about and really inspired and be warm and be that person rather than kind of the introspective, kind of head down, um, not moody, but certainly not like bubbly yeah like if I, if I want to be more like that, I've got to do the things that people do and lean in and and it makes you feel good.

I love that. Just like push yourself into those spaces, I think I think.

:: 53:19

Do you think it's a bit harder because the sense of community and the sort of the quiet village type is gone? Yeah, we've lost that, that sense of. In about 50 to 100 years ago, you lived in the same place, you died in the same place. Therefore, you knew your neighbor, you knew the postman, the milkman, you knew all these people. Um, that isn't really a thing anymore.

Yeah, that's probably something that we probably have lost as a result of that. Therefore, you go through your daily life walking past 5,000 people, not saying hello to a single one of them. I think that probably comes back to the sense of, whilst it's great to be able to travel and explore the world, that we wouldn't have been able to do 500 years ago, whereas now you don't live in the same village you did when you were born and same village you did when you were born, and therefore it probably makes it harder to have that sense of purpose being around the people that you maybe were born next to and, yeah, in the same household as three generations type thing, which actually is something we said for that 100 I think it is fascinating.

:: 54:08

I just thought about it through the lens of podcasting as well. I love podcasting, I love these conversations, but I often find people going. You know, that podcast is the longest and deepest chat we've ever had and that's nice. Yeah, as I've been able to do it, it shouldn't come to the heart, yeah. Yeah, I saw a funny TikTok the other day that was like just raw dog to podcast with two of my mates no microphones, no cameras, three hours of uninterrupted conversation. I'm like, yeah, that's funny, but it's a weird modern twist on having a DMC, a few beautiful conversations. It just happens that we record it for posterity and to publish. Yeah, I think these quirks of modern life. I think that we're starting to go. Okay, we can see the problem. Now, we've brought awareness to the problem. Now, how can we, how can we solve that?

:: 55:01

I mean what?

:: 55:01

are we doing to try and do things differently?

:: 55:04

um, yeah, brilliant always ask a question and this might be completely random joe and I talked about this. Uh, after the, we did like two back-to-back yeah podcast last time with you and you said, god, jamie, would be really good health secretary, health uk. And I was like you're not wrong. So my question to you is if you were the health secretary of the uk, what would you change going into 2025?

:: 55:28

I'd um mandate everyone else in the cabinet to do mushrooms why? But my first thing would be psychedelics in politics. I was listening I can't remember what it might have been rogan, I think talking about how if you're running for president, you should have to do like a at least x number of plant medicine experiences. A to like uncover what you've been suppressing, but also b to see if at the end of it you still want to be in politics. And they're like probably at the end of that you probably wouldn't be. But it's exactly the type of person who should.

Ones of me, and I think politics is, you know, widely fucked. I don't think that's a particularly kind of revelatory statement. Um, what would I do as health secretary Other than lace the water? I would. I've never thought about this because it just seems so far away from where I feel like I could end up. Where would I start? I think it could be the best question, but I think it would be around, I think it would be around young people. So I'd go in at the I guess the earliest place I could, and tear up the sort of health education aspect.

I go right, like the way we I'm talking more as education secretary now, but maybe I dual role could, if you're watching, yeah, be run, be an empathy, which is my campaign video and vote for would be just rip up how we how we school kids in terms of health, but also just in terms of lifestyle, in terms of in times spent outside or in terms of, um you know, very much more towards that montessori style of teaching and parenting and um, really immersing kids in what matters. And then you know the obvious things like breathwork, mindfulness, emotional regulation, just equipping children with the tools that we all are learning now and allowing the country ultimately to be built from from that place. I think that would probably be where I would start. I'd also probably go on a little bit of an rfk-esque sort of health food series. I'd go on the food side of things, um, and just again look at how we're operating from a place of sugar and salt and alcohol and and that side of things.

I'd probably go down that that path, um, and look at the big pharma stuff as well, and I'm by no means kind of a deep conspiracy theorist around this stuff, but it's, it's not even a conspiracy to say that you know, if there's financial gain in in pharmaceuticals for those companies to push their drugs and keep people sick, then, um, there's a serious problem with the the system itself. So I'd say I'd definitely go a lot to be done. We need to start somewhere. So, uh, jvpem on 256 I can can see it.

:: 58:28

Now I'll tell you what I find really interesting. If you were to teach young kids to be fair, I think it's a hard one because I probably wouldn't have been switched on at that age but like things like financial literacy, like you said, the health side, breath, work side, whatever it is and kind of just give them the core areas for it so they can go and learn it properly and, yeah, when they're older, I'd be really interested to see what the mental health correlation is like, if there were graphs for it.

:: 58:57

I found it such a fascinating conversation because, like I was saying before, I think this, this clash of the way the world is, you know, politics and economy and the, the system and the get the rules of the game in which we're all playing, um, big picture clashing with greater self-awareness, there's a mismatch in there somewhere. It's like this increase in trait, openness, like our open-mindedness, our capacity to think for ourselves. As that goes up, there's an increased clash with that, and so we kind of butt heads, and so, ultimately, I guess what I'm getting at is that I think, if you, ultimately, I guess what I'm getting at is that I think, if you, I'm gonna go quite extreme here, but if that happened which I don't think it would under the current system I just think you'd get some kind of wholesale change of government structure a lot more quickly. I just think you'd get a revolution and a revolt a lot more quickly, um, because I don't think the two can coexist, and so I think there would just be a real iteration in how things are done, um, and I don't, yeah, I just unfortunately don't see it. It's starting to happen, but it's still happening under the rules of the same game, and so I do think there's a lot of impetus for the government in its current form to not encourage young people and adults to really think for themselves, because once you start thinking for yourself, then you start questioning things and then, when you start questioning things, you start seeing all the holes in things and then you want things to be done differently because it no longer feels good to you and they don't want that. And so I I think that's where I and you know I've worked for politicians in the past and this is what I've always found fascinating Good people as an individual Thrust them into that setup.

All goes to shit because they're trapped and they're stuck. Even with the best of intentions, they end up not being able to operate because they're hamstrung by the role. They're hamstrung by the role. They're hamstrung by the position. Um, I remember janice verafakis saying that the you know he gave an example of like the finance minister of germany doesn't have the power of the person. They have the power of the role. They can only do what that role allows them to do, and I think that's where, for me, is health secretary I'm stuck.

:: 01:18

I would love this if it gets to like 20, 30, probably you actually are health secretary.

:: 01:22

Depends how quickly if you get the hanging mushrooms.

:: 01:31

Right, I knew this day would come. So if you just go to something, go this yeah, I get this podcast clipped up or I'll end it on one last question. Thank you so much for your time, as always. I want to say, going into 2025. What's one piece of advice you would give to the listeners?

:: 01:49

I think it comes back to a lot of this, the, the muti stuff that we've covered around knowing yourself, um, it truly is the only place to build anything from, not just a business, but build a life from.

And so that awareness piece, but I think the transition that I'm, that I have witnessed in myself and I'm seeing in the world, is this next phase.

You know, I called it the other day sort of healing 1.0 and healing 2.0, which is know yourself, immerse yourself in that understanding and then integrate it and actualize it and alchemize it to a place where you can sort of allow it to fade into the background. The awareness shouldn't be the front center piece of, like, everything you do. You shouldn't just only be able to go and sit at a dinner party and talk about your parents, divorce and your past trauma, like that's not the only part of you. It's like what are you doing now? What have you used that knowledge for? Not just knowledge for knowledge sake, um, and so go inward, but also go onward. I think is what I would say to people is like get out in the world, exist, operate, feel, think, play like, do shit with what you've learned about yourself, because I think the last four years have proven that we've done that pretty well and I think we've got to go somewhere different now. Absolutely love that amazing absolutely love that.