#9 - Hosts - Coping With Depression: Guide To Men's Mental Health

:: 00:09

Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Tom, I'm Joe and this is Inside of Mind. Whether you are watching or listening, wherever you are in the world, we hope this podcast can provide valuable advice on how to better deal with your physical and mental wellbeing. Now sit back, relax, and I can't wait to get into episode nine, which is going to be a part two, a follow on from our first episode we filmed.

We're also going to be chatting about November as a whole, men's mental health and the whole month of November and how we're supporting it, and a bit about that as well, but I can't wait to get into it, mate, good to have you back as a guest again.

:: 00:45

It's been a while 360.

:: 00:47

All circle.

:: 00:47

Yeah, mate, welcome back, thank you.

:: 00:49

How you doing anyway.

:: 00:50

Yeah, good man, really good, Thank you. Yeah, it's a bit weird, isn't it being in a different space round two for the first time round.

:: 00:57

I do. I do like it. This is. This could be our new, our new spot to film this in. But yeah, I kind of just wanted to start this off. Obviously it's slightly spontaneous from us. We had a bit of a plan and then we were going to do this episode anyway further down the line, but we brought it closer and November is obviously a tough month for people and I thought there's no better time to go on about what we talked about on the first episode a bit about us and a bit of a follow on and how. I think it was about four months ago now. That episode, mate, that's gone quick, yeah, that's gone really quick, yeah. But first off, just wanted to say what's life been like since that episode.

:: 01:33

I mean life outside of this world has been relatively normal. Work's been pretty good. Busy. Back into rugby now. Otherwise good. I think it's the introducing it, to which I'm not I'm completely alien to the whole podcasting, and the chat show thing was obviously will touch on as well. It's been pretty surreal. I think the feedback that you and I both got has been pretty cool from it. So really weird actually. I think I've enjoyed this experience of getting into podcasting, bringing the guests on. Matt thoroughly enjoyed it. Yeah, it's been pretty, pretty surreal. What have you preferred?

:: 02:04

so far being a host or a guest? Oh, good question.

:: 02:09

I found being a guest really therapeutic. I found the whole experience really cathartic. I got a lot from it. Just personally, I enjoy getting to know the guests as well. I think I'm on the fence with that one. I think probably preferred being a guest for the experience I got from it, but then learning about the people we have on as guests has been really cool as well. I've really enjoyed being a host more than I thought I would actually.

:: 02:30

Yeah, I was obviously a guest on that Smate Time to Talk. And that's like a. It's actually so different. Like people haven't done a podcast before, hosted or been a guest Like. There's a massive difference between sitting there and answering the questions and then being the one thinking of them.

:: 02:44

So true, setting the structure, it's also nice to switch off from it as well. I think, being a being a host, you're on the spot a lot of the time. You have to sort of come up with a lot of stuff and create the conversations, whereas I'm actually going on this podcast next month as well, which I told you about I'm going on and I'm going to meet him and go down to Coventry. Yeah, I can't wait to go on that one. That was a sick experience as well. He runs a propaganda podcast.

:: 03:04

It's wicked and he's very, very good, very good to learn from. He's been a massive help. He's given me loads of ideas and stuff out, so you'll absolutely love that. Yeah, awesome. Before we go to off topic, I want to sort of run back to our first episode. Can you give everyone sort of a breakdown of what that episode was about?

:: 03:20

If they haven't watched it.

:: 03:21

Feel free to go watch it. It'll be on the channel description. But if they haven't watched it, can you just give a?

:: 03:26

brief breakdown of what we did. Obviously, I was guest number one, which seems a lifetime ago, and it was basically covering anxiety and depression, my journey with it and sort of coming out the other side of it and sort of my experiences, my coping mechanisms and my life in general basically, and you were sort of very gracious having me on and it's been sort of it's been amazing since then, actually, and to go full cycle and I become a host on the channel is a little bit surreal. But yeah, I absolutely loved it and obviously the episode went down really really well. So for those of us who haven't seen it, go and check it out.

:: 04:00

But yeah, it was really really good mate, really good, at the forefront of it. It was kind of like a chat about depression, some of the problems you've gone through when I was in childhood. I remember right yeah, and that was quite like a vulnerable, vulnerable chat and you said it before it kind of was like therapy.

:: 04:14

Yeah.

:: 04:15

And the question I was asked you was when we're doing this, when we're doing the podcast? It really made me think, because I saw that clip the other day about therapy. It was we're doing this to help other people, but do you think doing this podcast is actually a bit of therapy?

:: 04:28

for us yeah.

:: 04:29

I feel so much better like talking like this. Obviously it's vulnerable. You put your life out there, but after that chat I felt so much better, even though I was hosting it.

:: 04:37

It was just like it's funny, I think, fresh if I, I would never have envisaged doing this, maybe five, six years ago, maybe even two years ago, I think. Since I started caring less about being judged by people for doing it, I've my my walls have come down slightly, whereas up until maybe two or three, two or three years ago, maybe even less than that, I think I would have cared so much for being judged for what I said. But actually coming out here and speaking so openly, I've the amount of people I've had that have said I feel exactly the same way as you and I wish I was brave enough to speak up is I'm not speaking on behalf of me. I'm speaking on behalf of many, many other people, particularly in men, which again will come to the whole November thing. I'm speaking on behalf of so many people, which makes it worth my time.

It's worth doing it because selfishly, I feel better for it just to getting stuff off my chest, and it's like a form of therapy for myself. But also I have so many like minded men, and women as well, who have said exactly the same thing as me. They said it's so nice to hear someone talk about it so openly and plainly, and someone who on the surface looks normal and obviously we touched on that in the episode one is on the surface you're going to look like you don't suffer with things and actually beneath all you are really, really battling, so struggling. I guess it's a win-win for me. I feel better having come on things, doing things like this, and if I can help one other person then even better.

:: 05:50

I absolutely love that. Why do you think you're more comfortable talking now? I reckon that's just a maturity thing with age. That's a good question.

:: 05:58

I think definitely maturity helps and, I think, also gaining perspective on certain things, and I've had many, many people help me with that journey all the way through, from start to finish. I think it's really hard when you're young. You don't really have an identity and I think again coming back to why I said a minute ago is caring so much less about what people think about me and I spent so many years caring way too much about people's opinions on me. I do to a certain extent now. It does bother me, but I don't really.

I'm not really that fuss about people not liking what I'm doing because I don't want to watch it. I don't have to, whereas I know that there are many, many people out there who could benefit from it. So that's what I'm thinking about. So the forefront of my mind is that people like me and what would I want to see if I'm a 16 to 18 year old lad who's really battling? I want to see someone who's 10 years older than me plus, who's been there, got the t-shirt and who's day to day still struggles, but I've been equipped with the the tools to be able to manage it better, if that makes sense and there are granted there are days and I know you'll say the same thing is you and I aren't the finished article.

We've not come out the other side and we're not. We're not cured. You don't cure mental health, you just learn to cope with it better, and that's that's. The distinction for me is you're not just going to wake up one morning and feel great Particularly this time of year when I get more touch on it is people are really battling when it comes to this time of year and again around the November and change the weather and that kind of stuff, and yeah about like a difference.

:: 07:19

Have there been sort of any key like main lessons you've had where you've you've distinctly been like that means you know, because it's hard it's hard to not care what people think of you. And do you think there's any lessons you've learned from that sort of letting that go and being like, having the opportunity to be like I don't care, I know I'm a good person and be secure in yourself. What? What sort of lessons have you learned from that?

:: 07:41

I think, I think certainly growing a thicker skin through years of allowing it to affect me, and I think one of the lessons that Nikki, my hypnotherapist so I've not seen for a while and she taught me many, many amazing things, one of which was if you, if you, if you separate yourself from that situation and realize that nothing they're ever going to say or think is ever going to affect you in a negative way unless you allow it to, if you can separate yourself from that and realize actually someone's opinion on me doesn't make a difference, it doesn't affect me in any way.

So once I started to do that and it took a while and certainly through methods that she she taught me is other people's opinions that matter to me at all, unless people I really know and love and my friends and family and loved ones are the only people's opinions I care about. So otherwise it's irrelevant. Like you know, my opinion on you behind closed doors wouldn't matter not to touch your face. So allowing it to affect me is I'm losing everything and gaining nothing. So, yeah, growing a thicker skin experience and being a bit more chill, I think as well, definitely helps After your opinion on these, all right, no comment.

:: 08:42

Yeah, in terms of therapy, what are the things you? We touched on hypnotherapy in the first episode. I've completely gone blank. I know you did hypnotherapy with Nicky Ansey and I've looked to be in turn. That looked really actually pretty cool yeah she was awesome. Obviously, call is probably the wrong word because it's a stressful time, but it looked really useful what you were doing. What other type of things does she teach you when you're doing that?

:: 09:06

So she goes into a lot of how the brain works and she goes really really far back.

She goes to far beyond your childhood and she taps into the reasons why you are the way you are and it's sort of looking at not just childhood but even your parents childhood. She goes way back and she really sort of makes you think about things in a really much more deeper way rather than just thinking about the reason I am is because my parents got divorced. It could be way further back if you have any thought of and she taps into all these avenues of things that may have affected you and you start thinking, okay, that's really really interesting. Maybe it's my mom, dad, even as far back as my grandparents. It's really tapping into your actual the DNA and the structuring around your brain and how things affect you and, like I said earlier, giving the tools to be able to cope with anxiety or depressive states and also being realistic with it and knowing that there are going to be certain days we're going to feel worse, and it's just combating it and coping with those things better.

:: 09:55

If someone is a bit too scared to go to therapy like it's a scary thing, like. You don't want to be vulnerable, you don't want to put yourself out there. Sometimes you just like when it was myself, I did go, but there was times I was like, oh no, I can't do it. What other advice would you sort of give to people who are at that stage? Would you just say go and do it, or would you say find other avenues if it doesn't work? For you.

:: 10:16

Yeah, I mean, I'd say both. I would say 100%. Trying new things is like anything, right, you don't really like to really go to sport like rugby. Football is trying things. You know, if I have it I'm lucky enough to have kids I'll get my kids not just try rugby, I'll go and try everything. And if they don't like football, rugby, basketball, at least they know they've tried it.

So I'd say the same thing about therapy is that going and trying something, there's no harm in trying it. If it doesn't work for you, then you try something else, but equally, having a deeper understanding about what it is you're gaining from that. So talk about it beforehand with someone you trust, something like your mom and dad or your aunt or your uncle, your best friend, and sharing your thoughts on that before you try it. Whether it be cognitive behavioral therapy or anything along that therapy realm is trying. If it doesn't work for you, don't stress. Try something else that does work for you. And it's the same thing when it comes to coping mechanisms around anxiety or depression. Is, you know, if walking doesn't work for you, swimming might. If collecting stamps doesn't work for you, you know anything, all these minor things that to you and I might be menial to other people, make me a huge difference. So just trying things, get yourself out there, try things. If it doesn't work for you, try something else that does.

:: 11:25

You just touched on physical exercise towards the end. That's something that's been massive for both of us. What would you say is your main thing, which is like, would you say, the gym's sort of your out for that? Or rugby, because I know you've just got back into a rugby as well.

:: 11:39

It's a good question, I think it's a really really good question. I think day to day having the gym definitely has been the best thing for me, and it comes into want something to be bigger than that. I think it's around my routine, and when my routine is broken, my mental health really redeclines. And that's something that I have been reliant on probably too reliant on is around structure and routine, and having the gym in place in that is when I'm at my best, I think.

And rugby, I think, is again we touched on episode one is that, coming on from that is, my social life is quite limited. I'm quite limited social life and I think I keep myself to my loved ones and my friends and family most and I don't really have much outside of that in terms of my social structure. So rugby is for me, it's a huge let out in terms of my. It's a let out of me in terms of aggression and anger and pent up stuff through the week and also it's a lot of my social circle revolves around that. So when that's taken away from me again, I'm in a slightly worse headspace. And so, yeah, gym and rugby, I think, are the two main pillars for me in terms of keeping a level playing field mentally, and having that physical and structure is the biggest thing for me, for sure I'm the exact same with rugby.

:: 12:51

What you said about having that pent up aggression during the week, and it is sort of an out to go and be with your mates for, even if it's in the evening for a few drinks, or even if you're in the twos or the ones, whatever it is being around an environment, whether it's any sport, not just rugby, it's just like that's. I always come back from a Saturday. I don't think I've ever woke up on the Sunday and felt I felt sore not sore from playing, but I've never felt mentally worse.

:: 13:18

I think there's so much to be said for young men in particular who aren't able to channel their aggression and they end up being really, really angry young men with no way of channeling it. I think so much can be said for having these boxing centers in the middle of London, for example, who have young lads who might have got a bit of trouble with the police. Or look at Ellis Gange and Carl Sinclair, for example. Those guys have admitted that if it wasn't for rugby there'd been a far worse place, sorry. So Ellis Gange, for example, he said rugby has been a huge thing for him in terms of getting off the street, getting out of trouble, getting involved with gang culture, that kind of stuff around Bristol where he was raised.

That for me is massive. Is allowing these young men in particular to have an avenue down, like boxing, rugby, football, whatever, to channel that aggression in a calm environment where they're not going to get into trouble. It's huge and I guess it's similar to you and I is obviously upbringing slightly different and stuff but I think it's channeling that aggression that you might have pent up through the week or you're housing something from the family or your messes or whatever, and it's allowing to channel that in a positive way, that's going to have a positive outcome on your mental well-being. So that's a lot can be said for that for sure.

:: 14:25

I think it also, instead of just being a channel, it also teaches you how to control your aggression. Yeah, exactly through discipline and resilience as well. So having that discipline to turn up and do something and in a way, you're playing a high contact sport I think people with rugby forget how draining it can be physically as well and it's just having the control to not go crazy and channel it into something. That's something I took into everyday life because you can lose your head, you can see red, like every person does.

Yeah for sure. But it's being able to, when you see red, control it and go in, and I take that into my day to day life, take it into family problems, I take it into relationship, everything. It's just being able to control that aggression. It's like that's something sport that taught me really early on, actually, which I'm actually so thankful for, because I know a lot of people our age just can't control their aggression or they're on a night out and they're just always trying to fight stuff out.

And it's just being able to be like I could. But my physically want to, but I'm not going to.

And that's why I think being part of a team sport no matter. We're just using rugby because we both love it and we both play it, but any team sport, I feel like that's the same and being in that environment just helps my anxiety so much as well. Like you said, you were injured for the last few months. That's just mentally takes a massive toll on you. Like you said, you lose that social structure, you lose your routine, and I was the exact same when I got injured. My worst mental points were through that injury because I wasn't around my mates, I had no routine, I was lying in bed because I couldn't walk some ankle and it just ruined me.

Yeah, that's really tough and you people really take that for granted. Being in that sort of social environment and ever since I've been back at Henley and playing down at Henley, at the moment my mental health is in such a great place in terms of how I'm feeling after the weekend training. I train tonight, I train on a Tuesday, train on a Thursday and like I look forward to it, and it is one of those things where I think a lot of people miss out on that. They might not like sport, which is fair enough, but there's tons of other clubs you can chuck yourself into, whether it's like a debating club at uni, you just got to find your people.

:: 16:36

Yeah 100%.

:: 16:37

I think that's probably one of the most underrated things when it comes to mental health is being around people. They don't have to be your best friends, but just having people there to listen, having people there when you are stressed to be able to not vent to, but be around to bring your mood up, is just I think I literally think that's probably one of the best things.

:: 16:56

I've done for myself 100%, yeah, spot on, absolutely spot on.

:: 16:59

I think the next thing I wanted to talk about was we talked about Nicky Ansey before and Gabriella actually said something. Who's behind the camera?

Currently hiding Actually said something when I was at your house and she said I can't remember the exact words, you said it so well, but it was on medication and I asked her views on medication, on anxiety and things like that, and Nicky said it in a way where it's not to look at medication in a negative way, but it's to look at it as you're just replacing that hormone that your body can't create for the time being and building it up. What's your sort of view on medication as a whole when it comes to things like anxiety and depression?

:: 17:41

Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a place for it. I think what works for some people doesn't necessarily work for others, but I definitely think if you're in a headspace where you've tried multiple, multiple things, like you've gone down the physical exercise route or for whatever reason you can't do that, there's definitely a place of medication, I think. In my personal view, I don't think it should be a means to an end. I think it should be a temporary fix to a more long term problem. In my opinion, some people will be on it for the rest of their lives and there's definitely a place for that as well. But I think the most people that take it are using it to fulfill something and they're stopping something, so they're relying on it.

Maybe is probably the word for better, but a word I bet there definitely is a place for it, 100%. I think whilst you're doing it, it should be. This is fulfilling something that isn't there currently, but I also should be doing, trying other things to maybe fulfill that hormone, for example, and trying to find another way of finding it more natural way of doing it, for example. But yeah, there's one million place for medication that because it saved lives.

Many people would say they're not here today as a result of having medication for ADHD, for example. People would suddenly be heavily medicated for that. If it wasn't for those tablets they're taking every day, they would be off the scale that we ought to function, so there definitely is a place for it. In regards to anxiety, personally I would say that, whilst there was definitely a place for it is use it as a short-term stop gap and try and find those other methods that would work better and more natural way of doing it to get those happy hormones back, find those endorphins and find yourself in a better place more naturally. But yeah, definitely using them is a good thing.

:: 19:22

What would you say would be the main things to look at, like lifestyle changes? Yeah, for sure.

:: 19:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think people can be quite suppressed when they take them and, whilst it's either replacing or suppressing hormones, it can really mess with people's sort of yeah, I think you can rely on them too much and you can stop yourself from becoming physically active. You can stop your social ladder. It can be completely suppressed. It can mess with your sleeping patterns. So I think, going back to basics in that sense, and trying to get your eight hours of sleep a day, trying to keep your social, stay social, keep your social climbing and being around those people who are gonna be good for you, staying physically active, eating the right foods as well as massive, keeping those core values together, and trying to find your ways around that rather than relying too much on that medication.

:: 20:23

Nutrition's actually a huge one. I feel like that's really overlooked. When I spoke to Sammy on the episode after you, so that would be an episode too for you on as a guest.

She was basically just saying, in terms of performance and mental health, like what you eat can just spike the hormones in your body like crazy. And if you are struggling with anxiety if you are obviously we're using anxiety and depression here because we've both gone through it Just for that, watching what you eat makes a huge difference, whether that's processed foods and then all different things as well in terms of like inflammation. I didn't realize which is on the other end, which was a performance based thing, where you eat like these little dried cherry things I can't remember what the exact word for them was, but they have like cherry tart juice and all these different things for inflammation, and I was just like actually quite shocked by it. I always knew nutrition was important, but I never knew like how much of a difference it could make, and I've started eating a lot cleaner since then. I noticed a huge difference.

:: 21:20

I'm not.

:: 21:20

I honestly not just saying that I really, really do. When I was at uni, I used to get a lot takeaways, I mean like you, just do yeah or you eat rubbish because you're trying to eat on a budget.

So now I'm eating properly and I have a bit of a structure and a routine to what I'm eating. I'm liking certain new foods. I'm doing the things she suggested on that episode. I feel pretty damn good. I'm not gonna lie, I'm obviously not perfect every day, for the majority say 80% of the time, I'm feeling pretty good on the changes.

:: 21:50

That's the thing. I think a lot of what we're talking about and all the themes will report back to or avert back to, I should say, is routine. So like, if you're eating cleanly five out of those seven days a week, that's great and you're doing more than most. If you're getting seven, eight hours of sleep five, six days a week, amazing. If you're moving five, six days a week, you know, having that routine in place just helps. So when you are working outside of those lines sometimes and you do again.

Coming back to our episode one in regards to drinking and the reasons why I don't, is because it doesn't work for me and that's why I've completely cut out of my lifestyle. And for you you'll allow yourself I don't know you personally. I should say, is you allow yourself the odd night every now and again and it doesn't do you too much harm? But you allow yourself to because it's a nice sort of releasing, you have a good time with your mates and you can have a couple of beers and whatever. It's when you do it too often I'm not gonna say about you in general, about people in general is that's when you can get that decline and that's when you lose the sleep, you start eating worse or something like that, and then your routine is out of kilter again.

And that's for me. I won't allow myself to do. That is because I need those things to stay in place in my mindset to maintain at this level, and if I allow myself to drop too much I'll just lose it and then I'll spiral out of control. So I need that routine, and call it control wherever you want, but I just need that. So, again, it's a routine thing for me as well. For sure, do you think your routine?

:: 23:09

has changed. Now November's come around and the clocks have is the clocks gone back or forward.

:: 23:14

They've gone forward, so we've lost. We've gained an hour, so they've gone back. So they've gone back yeah, has your routine changed from that? It's a really good question. Something's gone forward, actually, because it's darker, isn't it?

:: 23:25

I'm so confused. I think everyone knows what we're on about. Yeah, yeah yeah.

:: 23:29

So it's a really good question. I think I'm consciously trying to get outside wherever I can, because season of effective disorder affects more people than maybe they would care to admit and maybe they're not aware of it. For those that aren't aware is when you get those day like hours where it's dark from I don't know, it's pitch black all the way up until nine in the morning. Sometimes, when you get to the really dark stages into December, january, is people whose moods are really affected by that weather change whether it was colder, it's darker, not getting enough sunlight, vitamin D their moods are really, really affected by that. It's quite hard to be around them because they just feel sad.

You know that's what the saying comes from is I'm consciously, maybe, getting outside whenever I can. So I'm in a fortunate position where if I'm in between clients and I've got an hour to kill, rather than being inside session planning, I'd be outside, listen to a podcast, whatever, and I'd be outside getting that sunlight in. I can do that. Some people can't and that's where it gets tough. So certainly consciously, I'm getting outside whenever possible. I think maybe during the summer I don't need to, because it's sunny throughout the day and you're always gonna get that sunlight in and get the vitamin D in, but I think that's the only change I probably would have made to my daily routine is getting outside wherever possible, because I know that it makes a big difference to me.

:: 24:48

Yeah, I feel like it's really affected me so far. That was like the actual having an hour back or forward, whatever it is, but like I really feel the effect because I am someone with my ADHD where I need a routine. I find it hard to stick to a routine but honestly, even like the most minor change really messes with my head. So whether I'm getting up 10 minutes later, 10 minutes earlier, whatever it is like, it really screws with me. And having that go an hour back the first few I think I said this to you on the phone the other day I was like the first few days of November when the clocks changed Really tough.

:: 25:23

Yeah, I just.

:: 25:23

I really was out of sync. I was because I train in the evenings for rugby, so I gym around. I get up around 6 am to gym at the start of the week but then I was getting up and it wasn't that time and then I was standing around for ages because I was getting up and it just like really put me out of sync and I find it interesting. You said about the seasonal seasonal effective disorder.

Seasonal effective disorder Because I reckon that's something I kind of have in a way, because I really feel the effective. I know it sounds so silly, but I do feel the effective.

:: 25:54

Minute changes the stats on it are nuts. I mean, there'll be people watching this at home going. That's really interesting, because I've spoken to maybe four or five clients this week alone who've gone. That's really interesting, Joe, because people won't understand just how much it affects until they start thinking about it and going. Actually, that's funny because this week I have felt a massive shift in me, and it's not just to do with the clocks. It's, of course, as a result of that, because it's so dark. You know five o'clock. It's pitch black now and it's only gonna get worse into December, January. Obviously we've got Christmas to look forward to, so that's around the corner. But when it gets to January, people are really down. People haven't got any money, it's pitch black, the weather's not particularly nice. It affects a lot more people than I. Don't know the exact stats on it, but the stats around people with seasonal effective disorders is massive. So, again, the people watching this now are going. I'm not gonna look into that, because it affects a lot of people.

:: 26:45

You said about money there. Do you reckon November's a really tough month for people because it's sort of the build up to Christmas? Money is tight for everyone at the moment. It doesn't matter who you are, everyone's struggling. Obviously a lot more people are struggling than others, but a lot of people are struggling with money, and having that financial sort of insecurity which the majority of the UK population at the moment have is just so stressful Just for your mental health but just in general as well, because you take that into day to day life.

You take those stresses because it's constantly in the back of your mind. Do you reckon? November's notoriously a bad month for mental health due to Christmas coming up, people are preparing. You wanna do nice things with family, friends, like you do. It's a great time of year, christmas but I always feel like the build up before these things. When you're buying the presents you're looking at your bank account like, oh, I'm struggling a bit here. That must be tough.

:: 27:43

I think it is. I think it actually it's worse, because summer has been and gone and you know it's gonna be a whole other year before it comes around again, or sort of eight months at least. So we know we're not gonna get any decent weather for a good chunk of the year. For the rest of the people, like from here on in, you know the weather's gonna get worse before it gets better. You know the rest of the series of expensive months coming up and Christmas is a time where you can almost paint over the cracks as well.

I think people can use Christmas as a bit of a sort of escapism and you know there's a finite period where everyone's got off work, where you get maybe a week or two off if you're lucky and everyone's happy in a good mood. But you know that period before and after is really tough because you've got no money, you're scrimping and saving for Christmas anyway and a lot of people are really battling it, particularly with the cost of living crisis. And you know that January's around the corner where the weather's at its worst. There's not much to particularly look forward to and everyone's broke. So I think it's that period before and after where, like I said, the weather's worse and it really, really affects people. Hence why November is this doomed month that we are sort of now celebrating and trying to raise awareness around it to avoid those kind of things happening.

:: 28:52

Do you reckon, at this time of year, it's important to have a purpose in what you're doing and finding not more of a purpose, but finding that thing where you can in a way distract yourself from problems?

:: 29:04

going on. I think so because I think people, again people use summer as the reason for getting in shape, getting active and stuff and finding their purpose, and I think that's again what makes it harder is that people, once someone's been gone, they're like what do I do now? I'm sort of in this limbo period between here and New Year and I can sort of let myself go around Christmas time because it's not a time where everyone does it. Definitely. I think it's a really good time to set some goals, to set you up something for the year to come. The whole New Year, new Me thing is a little bit lame, but I think I can work for a lot of people.

And, yeah, setting those targets and certainly giving stuff a new purpose whether it be getting physically active, learning to play the guitar, learning a new language I think those kind of things can be really, really pivotal because it allows your brain a distraction from the mundane everyday life and give you something really, really cool to focus on and something that really generally interests you. Don't start reading if you don't enjoy reading, actually reading about something that you're interested in specifically, or whether it be wanting to learn a new language or want to go traveling or learn to play the guitar that you've wanted to do for years. Do it. Pick up something that you really generally interest you and go for it and see where it takes you, and that can go a long way to you. Use the word distract. I think it could be a really important tool to sort of give yourself a new focus for sure.

:: 30:25

I read this article the other day from this guy called Monty Don. I put it on my Instagram I don't know when we do stuff at that, but there was an article in the Guardian and he's like a how do I explain him? He's like a TV personality like Gardner, who's really struggled with his mental health.

o he went completely broke in: 1987

:: 31:03

Yeah, it reminds me actually of the episode where we came on and we spoke about the little things. Right, there's little, I can't remember what. You fired them, or something.

:: 31:11

Small steps Like the small steps.

:: 31:12

You know there's little mini victories that really good friend of mine, troy, and I spoke about as many many years ago and he spoke about those little mini victories and he really resonated with him because he didn't do those things. He'd wake up and leave his bed unmade, for example. And I said, as soon as you wake up in the morning, first thing you should do is drink water and make your bed and then, no matter how bad your day is thereafter, you'll always come home to a made bed, and that, for me, was. It sounds so menial, but actually when you think about it it's huge, because you always come back to a homemade bed that you yourself have done and that times 10 things through the day can really really help you. And there's many victories through the day when you are really battling that can make the biggest difference, for sure.

:: 31:49

We've all taught. I think we've all talked about this.

We've definitely talked about this about if your room is a mess or my workspace is a mess. That normally represents how I am in my mental state at that point in time, which is I thought this site probably about a year ago. That's when I was like actively making my bed every morning. Whether I go and get breakfast first, come back and make it, I will always make the bed Like it's such a minor thing, like you said, but it makes a huge difference. At the times I leave it sort of leave it messy. I leave my clothes around the room. My girlfriend, my dad, my mom they always seem to point out whenever I do that that's when I'm in a bad headspace, or that's when I'm stressed out, or I've got things going on, or things are going wrong with the podcast, or things going wrong in my personal life, whatever it is. Those tend to be the times Now I do actively go and look to do that.

:: 32:43

It's particularly in things like ADHD is that you need those focal points around your life to help. So things like the saying is like tidy room, tidy mind thing, it's really reflected in, like you say, in your everyday life. If you are doing those things, it really reflects on personal relationship and your work as well will be better as a result of that. And coming back to what I said earlier is, if you have had a really really rubbish day, at least you've made your own bed and you've come back to that, and then it's a start of a new day the next day. Yeah, I agree.

:: 33:11

Right. His second one is keep as busy as you can, as it stops you dwelling on negative thoughts.

:: 33:18

So that's quite interesting because, whilst keeping busy is great, I feel like you can I agree and disagree, because I feel like keeping busy which I'm very, very guilty of doing sometimes and running away from the problem so interesting. So if you're keeping busy to distract yourself, I think that's wrong. If you're keeping busy to better yourself, that's the best way you can be. So, as long as you're doing it for the right reasons, I think definitely keeping busy is amazing 100% and sitting there dwelling on bad things is definitely not a good thing. However, bettering yourself and keeping busy to better that bad thing, then yeah, 100%.

:: 33:56

Do you reckon keeping busy on the stuff you arguably don't wanna do rather than, like you said, just running away?

:: 34:02

Yeah and again. The only reason I know that is because I used to be guilty of it is I would fill my day with things, pretending to be busy. So whenever someone would ask me, I'd say, well, look at all these things I'm doing, but actually I'm not doing anything, I'm just filling that time with complete nonsense. It's not, I'm getting no fulfillment out of it and it's not bettering me in any way, shape or form. So if you're busying yourself with things that gonna make you a better person or make your headspace a better place to be, then you should definitely be doing it, whereas if you're doing it to run away from that problem, there's a huge difference there, albeit on the surface it might look the same thing. Why do you think you did that? I think I was in denial about having a problem.

I think for a number and number of years, my I don't know my mom would ask me how my day was and I'd say, yeah, really good, thank you. Like I was so busy with doing loads of things and actually in that day I'd done absolutely nothing and I think I was one wanting her to make her proud, not wanting to admit to the fact that I wasn't fulfilling anything I would base you. I considered myself a complete waste of space that wasn't worthy of it. So I would just say, yep, I'm really busy doing. I don't know anything and I hadn't been, so I think I was partly in denial. So when I was able to sort of recognize the fact that I wasn't in a great headspace and I needed to fix it, I was able to go okay, I should be filling my day with doing positive things and not just working hard but allowing time to spend with my loved ones, my friends, family, and going to the gym and being productive with it, rather than sort of putting blocks in the way of actually helping myself.

Yeah, that's very, very relatable how I felt as well, I think it is and since I started talking about it is the amount of people I've had message me on the back of it going. It's actually amazing how many people can relate to that situation and that maybe those who are still doing it now, who maybe don't want to admit it and maybe wake up call for a lot of people out there as well.

:: 35:48

I think it's more just like, in a way, raising awareness around it as well is sometimes you just don't notice you're doing these things until someone points out the way you explained it then pretty much exactly how I felt and I did the exact same thing, but I didn't really know how to explain it until you just said it.

:: 36:04

Yeah, but I think procrastination a lot of people that's a key sign. If you have a loved one out there or your partner and they are ticking those boxes, it might be worth digging a bit deeper and actually seeing what the cause of that problem might be. So for me, I was in denial for a very long time and until I realized that after that point it was like clarity, I could see the bigger picture and I felt far better for it. So, yeah, 100%.

:: 36:29

I'll get on to the next one. He said do things that make you feel successful, and also to praise others to make them feel successful.

:: 36:39

That's interesting. I guess we touched on it back on the previous point. I think yes to that one. In a word, 100% I agree with that one and I think we can spend a lot of time focusing on ourselves and I think, since doing this podcast certainly is, I get so much joy out of knowing that I've helped someone through this, even though, selfishly, I'm enjoying it as well.

I'm getting so much from just airing my stuff I guess you could call it, and if I can help one person, 10 people, 1,000 people, it doesn't really matter. I'm allowing them to heal in some way and make it relatable, because I know you're the same. It's growing up. I didn't see anyone on TV or on my social platform that was in any way relatable. This is the whole reason behind you and I doing this is that people can see it and go. You know what I relate to that so much. And coming back to the question is praise is huge. I enjoy helping other people, which is again what I do. What I do for a living is helping someone makes me feel good, so I guess it's selfish in some way that I'm getting something from it as well. So, yeah, praising someone else is massive A two-way sword, isn't it?

:: 37:45

It's just we're finding it great helping people like that. That is the main reason why I sort of start this and now you've come on as well, because you feel the same is there was no one we could relate to. Well, in my opinion, when I was going through stuff, it was just looking at people who were also struggling and being like you're nothing like me, like maybe people like myself just don't have these problems. And that's the headspace you're in when you can't arguably think straight and you're not thinking clearly, which I definitely wasn't. I was doing some very questionable things when you look back at it, but you're in that headspace where you just don't have the ability to think straight and knowing, like, obviously you might not relate to us, but knowing we've gone through it and we are going through these things.

If I knew that at the time when I was 16, 17, you know hormonal years, as I always say, it's just that I think that would have just given me peace of mind. And it's just. It's nice that we're in this position now where we have gone through this stuff and we can help people, and whether you take our advice or not, even just listening and just knowing you're not alone is just I think that's just one of the main things is having the ability to help people and know you're not alone. Through something can just change someone's mindset completely, right? Well said, yeah, spot on, Right, I'll carry on with this. The fourth thing you said is to be outside and be in nature.

:: 39:12

Right, yeah, that's what you and I preach week in, week out, isn't it? I think I didn't really appreciate how much I gained from being outdoors and in sort of Nature I guess you could call it from that one is Walking for me. I didn't really appreciate how much it did for me until I actually saw your video on it and that's actually that you were having a really, really bad day. You went out for a walk, major bedroom and that literally fixed the rest of the day for you and that was a bit of a I just so true, and many, many people can relate to that is just being outside, even if it's for 10, 15 minutes. It's whole thing of you have to get 10,000 steps in a day for me as nonsense, I think, just by being outside even if it's 15, 20 minutes.

Yeah, because not everyone has the luxury of being able to be out for hours on end. So, particularly around this time of year, if you have a lunch break and you have an hour, take it, go outside 15, 20 minutes. Yes, of course, if it's, you know, teaming it down with rain, it's gonna be difficult, but get your umbrella, walk and you just be a being outside. It makes a huge difference and your productivity of the levels in the afternoon I can guarantee we improve like mark my words your productivity around what will improve? Because if you're a friend of a screen For 10 hours a day, sometimes more than that, by the 7th, 8th, 9th hour you're a zombie. You're just staring at the screen of him, realize what's going in. So if you can break that up somehow, I can't recommend getting outside enough.

:: 40:31

It's this time of year this last one, which I really liked, but I'm gonna say a few facts first before I do so. Men age 40 to 49 have the highest suicide rate in the UK. In 2021, there was 583 suicides registered in England and Wales. 70 75% of those were men. The highest rates were with low-income households and war veterans. And To go back to it, his final point was To have hope and be resilient through the darkness, and I think that's a really important point is a lot of these people feel like there's no out and They've lost hope and they've lost their purpose. What advice would you give to someone who, in a way, has lost their hope and their purpose? Obviously, it's so much it's easy to say, but it's hard to actually go and do. You can give a piece of advice? What would that be? That's a really good question.

:: 41:33

My advice to those who Genuinely feel they have nothing left is if you feel like the only way out is to take your own life, is the problem doesn't just go away. If you do, the problem is passed on to those around you. So if you can find someone or something that you can really confide in and Know that you're never, ever, ever gonna be alone I'm a doesn't matter how many, how often you think you're going to be, and there are times where I did is Seeing the light and clinging on to those people around you who are showing you love is to let them in rather than blocking them out, and I think I think in men it's so easy for us to sort of Block those people. A way and not let people help you is be okay with receiving help and Know that you're never gonna be alone. There's always someone out there who wants to listen and wants to talk to you, which I think is men up with slowly getting better at doing. I think we are getting better. Yeah, I think so.

:: 42:27

I think, yeah, I think it's just. It's a new generation, isn't it? It's a generational thing, like my parents generation. You just you don't talk about how you feel, but I like the idea of you know People are opening up, even if it is older people. I talked to someone at my rugby club the other day who was in is in their 50s.

here the highest rate between: 1449

:: 43:26

I think what I can definitely take away and I agree with you is what I can take away from some of the guests that you've had on, one of whom was was Alex. I think we can Definitely raise awareness around it and say that it's okay to not be okay and that it's not the man up, it's speak up and all this always cliche stuff actually Is, but also creating a generation of men who are resilient to it, not just speaking out about it and then Know what do I do now? I think we're in danger of creating a generation of young men who are just deemed snowflakes and can't handle their emotions and being being, of course, open about it. But actually, what do you do then?

I think it's and you know we spoke about it in a few podcasts ago is that we don't want to just create men who are okay talking. It's, it's giving them the resilience to carry on once they've spoken about it, and giving them the tools to be okay, being okay with their emotions, but also not being soft and being men, and and there's a real fine line there and I'm glad we're coming away from the sort of the man up thing but at the same time, we need to create an era of men where being at one with your emotions, but also giving the resilience and the fortitude to get through the tough times and stick it out yeah, I completely agree, and this is another fact to go leads on to, because you said about Young men is suicide was the second leading cause for death in the US for children at ages 10 to 14, and I think that's just like Gutting.

:: 44:54

Imagine being 10 to 14, feeling like you have to take your own life, and that being the second leading cause in the US. I'm gonna guess that's due to cyber bullying. That could be down to social media, their hormonal years, all the above. But again, like you said, it's being able to speak up about these problems but also being resilient enough to to stick them through, and that's so hard at that age to do something like that. But I hope again, like I keep saying is people can see this and be like they stuck it through, and maybe I can stick it through, and I think when I read that I was just, I felt gutted.

:: 45:27

Yeah.

:: 45:27

I lit up I was like Don't know, it's just, it's made feel a bit weird now, you know, the thought of like a 10 year old having to take his own life. Yeah, and it's just. I Don't even know how to put it into words, to be honest.

:: 45:38

I think it's just.

:: 45:40

Imagine what the parents have to go through and what that child has gone through to get to that point. It's just, it's crazy. But I completely agree about building that resilience, building that Determination to push through the tough times, whether it is cyber bullying, hormones, the Social media you hate on social media, getting hated by your looks because you feel like you have to look up to people, you have to be a certain way and I think, just as a whole Society is what is waking up to it. Yeah, but I'm just, in a way, I'm sort of excited to see these numbers in a few years time. I'm praying, I'm just generally praying that those numbers have dropped, because I've lost friends to suicide and and that just I always is in the back of my mind when we do these things and it's how we can help people. But those numbers are, that's crazy awful to see, aren't they?

I wanted to end it on we got two questions. I know you got a question and we get tons of questions, tons of topic areas that we go through when you put polls on your Instagram. But one of the ones that I saw and I think it sticks on the point of men's mental health was on our TikTok page and you said that I was on one of the videos that you did when you were talking about November as a whole, mm-hmm. And she said how would you say as women, we can support men and their mental health? And I thought I was a great question and I really had to think about it. I didn't reply for like an hour. I spoke to Meg about how she helps me with mine, makes my girlfriend of those you don't know, and how she helps me with what I'm going through. What would be your?

:: 47:14

response to that. It's a really really good question. I think it's. It's really difficult because I think, again, we're in an era now I'm basically quite controversial. I think we're in an era now where women are Chastising men for approaching them because they're being creepy, and Also in an era they want the door open for them and they won't approach men. So we're in an era where, like, young men and women really aren't dating because men are scared, because they don't be deemed the creep and this, that on the other. And I think I think Communication is massive, massive, massive thing and I think Young men are sort of damned if they do and I'm down if they don't in this in this day and age, and I'm glad that I'm not in that era, I'm glad that I'm sort of surpassed that.

So it's really tricky and there's no identity around young men anymore and they're not allowed to be one, because, seemingly, being man is like a crime now and I hate it. I see it all over social media. I think it's so anti men. So we need to get away from this rhetoric that all men are poisonous, horrible people there because they're not like. But to answer a question, I think that the way is to understand men better rather than just Pigeon holding them into this you know, animalistic state that they think all young boys are, which is just not the case at all. I think it's learning to understand and listen and trying to communicate better with either your partner he think might be battling and stuff or yeah, yeah what I replied to that.

:: 48:39

Actually I'll pull up why I replied to that Because I spoke to Meg about and I wanted to see her point of view, hmm, and I asked her what she kind of does when I'm in a bad headspace and I never really thought about before asking her and she was saying how Sometimes it's best to just Listen. It's you don't need like with myself, sometimes I do just need to vent and I don't want to put my problems on her. But she said, just sitting there and listening, not trying to solve your problems, but just like being a voice and letting in my. It was interesting what you did there as well.

:: 49:15

You said you don't put your problems onto her, you wouldn't be so if you, if she ever said to you, I don't have problems onto you, tom, your response would be the same You'd be well, you're not, because your problems are my problems. Like just by listening, you're allowing that space for it to be completely accepting and Creating a safe space for you to vent all your problems onto her, which you wouldn't be doing anywhere because they're not her problems. She's just allowing the safe space for you to talk and listen in the same way that her problems Wouldn't be yours. Therefore, the man I have me time she vents to you about her issues, will it be a work, her family? Because they're not. They're not your work and they're not your family. So you're not gonna feel more run down because of me. I'm gonna feel like here we go again.

If you love that person, they can talk to you all day and vent you all day about their issues. But ultimately, if they're able to do so, that's half the battle is. I completely agree. It's being able to Listen, just listen. Don't you have to have an answer, just listening to it, because Just getting off your chest and talking is half the battle. That's.

:: 50:12

That's what you're there for yeah, that was the main one. And she also said being patient and being present with the other two. Yeah, and that was something that Alex bones down here. So he was like be present in everything you do. And when she said that I was a bit like.

Yeah all right, she's. She's there, I'm the same. If she's got problem, I'm there, it's not oh, later. I'm there for you and I know that if I do have a problem, I do need to talk to someone. She's always there and I'm always there on the other side, well, any time of the day, if she has a problem.

:: 50:47

Yeah, I think that really ties into.

One of the questions that I definitely took away is from the the chat show ideas is that someone and few people in three or four asked the same thing is identifying anxiety and a partner, and I think that was one that I definitely took away and I was a really, really great question, because we we talk about ourselves having it, but we don't often talk about the other person or lives having to deal with it.

I see, deal with it really loosely is tying into everything that you just said is allowing time to listen and talk and Creating a space in every day or a couple of days a week or a couple of hours a week, just the two of you, where you can just talk about your week, you know, talk about the good things and also the bad things that happened, and you can talk about how you can improve, how you can do it differently next week and how you can and you're doing as a team. You know it's not a solo wall like you're, and that Allows you to do it with your partner in crime, the person you know you can trust and lean on and you can really sort of air your problems to, with no judgment, and it allows complete freedom to be able to say as much as you want to, knowing that you're not going to get judge or chastise, for you can do it together, and that makes it makes everything so much easier.

:: 52:04

I couldn't have said it better myself awesome man oh.