#10 - Annalie Howling - How To Overcome Burnout, Trauma & Relationships + So Much More

:: 00:18

Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Tom, I'm Joe and this is Inside of Mind. Whether you're watching or listening, wherever you are in the world, we hope that this podcast can provide valuable advice on how to better deal with your physical and mental wellbeing. Now sit back, relax and join me in introducing our special guest today, miss Annaly Howling.

:: 00:37

Thanks for coming on, I like that little clap.

:: 00:39

That's going to be my new thing. Thanks for coming on. How are you doing?

:: 00:42

I'm really good, thank you. Thank you for having me.

:: 00:44

Can you just tell the viewers and listeners a bit about you and a bit about your story?

:: 00:48

Of course. So I had a big corporate job for many years and then had a catastrophic burnout when I was coming up for my 30th birthday I'm 42 now and during that sort of you know, because I was quite like my quest was for like the material you know, like success, and there's a lot of trauma in the back story of that, in that I grew up in a house sort of violence my father was very violent towards me, my mother colluded, so classic, deeply unsafe, and so part of me being burnt out was due to this necessity to create safety and security for myself. So, working, working, working, you know, building a life like getting financial security. So it was an underlying layer of trauma. To that I now understand, yeah, but yeah, push myself beyond limits was having all manner of physical illnesses, despite in inverted commas people listening the successes that I was having had a very good reputation, I had a very well paying job, I had all the stuff you should have, you know, and I was miserable and I was tired and I was ill, and so I started going for intolerance tests and I've said this quite a few times on podcasts but I wasn't intolerant to gluten, I was intolerant to my life and my body was going to stop me and I was like in a role that was so misaligned with my soul and no matter how hard you push and no matter what you're doing, just to try and like, bandage yourself through the days, to you know, and I was chasing this goal, which I understand that have compassion for trying to create the safety for myself, but I was really harming myself in the process, I was really hurting myself.

:: 02:14

And now? Your journey now is as a performance coach.

:: 02:16

Yeah.

:: 02:17

And that's wrong oh it's the minutes.

:: 02:20

I started my training was life coaching. So I had a life coaching session with a really good friend of mine at that point in my life and it was so transformative and at the time coaching was a really woo, woo, weirdy thing, like it wasn't cool, like it is now and you know people like really embrace it. It was very odd and weird and she just been off to San Francisco but it was such an impactful session on me and I can still remember we did a visualization and I can still see and remember a lot of things that came out of it. So that encouraged me to want to go and pursue and understand and unpick on my type A.

So I'm going to go like competitive need to know everything. So, like, why did I burn out, you know? So, like when? Into going to find all about this coaching thing and bring it back into my life and in the pursuit of learning about it? And honestly, at the time I was like I'm going to build a business out of this and this is going to be great. I'm going to be as successful with doing this new thing. But what they don't tell you when you go to coaching school is you're going to, like, break yourself open, you're going to learn how to be vulnerable and you're going to put yourself back together in quite a different way.

:: 03:21

What was the turning point for you, do you think, when you sort of said enough enough, because if you were the type to push yourself through everything, what was it? Do you wake up one morning and say, enough enough, I've got to change it.

:: 03:30

Or I mean my body. It didn't seem to matter what I did. I mean, I know Joe through fitness as well. You know, like always looked after myself so I could get away with it I think you boys would know about getting away with it you can keep yourself together, you can out train certain things, you can, you know, again, bandage your way through it.

But there was sort of two big things and I think about the age group of your listenership as well. My old job used to be as well around business development, so doing a lot of client entertainment and the company that I used to work for. Thankfully, I think now that just wouldn't happen. But I was told that I could not leave until the last client went home and I had to be back in the office the next day at 8am. We work site hours, construction, property, okay. So, three or four times a week I would get home at 3am, maybe four, back at my desk at 8am, and that was three or four times a week. Okay. So, and I haven't got the choice, and I'm there and I'm trying to keep myself safe and get my house and get my life and all those sorts of things and trying to outrun trauma, which we know you can't do. So this is like my cycle I'm in, and then I just remember having a really good friend of mine's 30th birthday on the Saturday and I was in bits.

And I was just like I can't do this. You know I can't go out again. I was exhausted and I just had this realization that that was absolutely fucked. Excuse my French, Like why am I not looking forward to having time with my friends Because I've been doing something with? You know, people pleasing, chasing around, trying to do do something else? And as saying that, in the process of all of that I was so just unhappy and tired all the time as well, and just I knew I wasn't myself and I could feel myself sort of drifting further and further away from me and that would be a big turning point.

:: 05:11

How unhappy do you think you were for like what? How long a period of time do you think you're unhappy for doing that job?

:: 05:18

I mean, there were parts of that job that I loved and I'm so really well connected to a lot of people, you know from it we've got some beautiful friends and I love learning. So there was a lot of things and you know, I am competitive and I was good at it, so I used to get like a dopamine here or I.

You know, it's good learning about an industry in a sector and bringing things together and making contacts, but I think the thing that really kind of impacted me there was more my body and what was going on and not understanding that was burnout, you know, and thinking of these little things that you could fix around the edges. But there was this elephant in the room that I wasn't willing to address, which was this? This huge part of my life that was dominating everything else was the thing I needed to deal with and it was impacting every relationship, including that one myself. So the other sort of factor with that, with the happiness pieces, the way I coped was by completely armoring up and never being vulnerable. Never, never, once did I cry at work. Never, I mean very one that was probably unhinged, you think about like I've been out all night and you know I mean imagine how emotional you'd be like.

I think about like yeah, you just you're the ups and the downs or something. I would never show any emotion. I would never, you know, not do the thing I would come. I manned up right and I was in a very toxically masculine environment. That's no shade to the guys. It's not an easy place to work for anyone. That sort of industry wasn't then better. Now it's very, very hard. I mean construction, I think, is the number one sector industry for men to take their own lives and it's it's relentlessly difficult and often in quite, quite unkind, harsh spaces. It's not very nice Always the environments that you're in and, like I said, I know there've been a huge improvement in those sectors since I worked there. But yeah, I learned to cope by repressing and I repressed all of my vulnerability and a lot of femininity as well, and the biggest journey of my work back to full happiness has been learning how to be vulnerable and doing it like all the time. I'm like a recovering vulnerability.

Like you know, I'm literally in recovery every day.

:: 07:24

Yeah, how did that? When you say you had to repress a lot of things and you put the armour on, how did that manifest outside of working relationships, either with your family or love?

:: 07:33

Oh, completely avoidant. So if we're going into attachment styles, which is super trendy at the moment, yeah, I mean, I was massively avoidant and so I would still. You know, that would be a huge tendency of mine would be to start, say, creating intimacy and relationship, even in some friendships, and you know, and then as soon as you're, you know, beginning to sort of delay, a, d armor and be a bit vulnerable. Boom, because it's just almost too much. It's almost like a juxtaposition.

:: 07:59

So when you felt that you were starting to give too much, you'd push away at the first hurdle it would almost just be too triggering to be honest, like the being intimate and being really vulnerable, and it's taken quite a long time to put all this stuff on.

:: 08:11

So, you know, and you just perform an act and I wasn't doing it to be an asshole or be a bad person. I was doing it to stay alive and keep doing my job to keep myself alive because I couldn't go home, because that wasn't an option.

So I know I understand. Now, like I said, I've got compassion for that version of myself that was doing that. But the other tendency in relationship, like whatever that might be, would just probably be to put in a bit of an arms length because I couldn't cope if someone had hurt me. So that's, that's avoidant.

When everyone's like boo the avoidant, I get it, but like you know the running away, it was more to be able to self regulate. I couldn't regulate in proximity, so sometimes I might still struggle with that, Like it's something that I need to remove myself thankfully not like in a country for weeks, but anymore. But yeah, I would maybe need to remove myself and regulate.

:: 09:00

Have you found that's a common thing with clients you speak to?

:: 09:03

Being avoidant.

:: 09:04

Well, yeah, I think it's more sort of when things get tough and they thought the armor starts to come down. Do you feel that's a common theme actual clients that people tend to push at that?

:: 09:13

Yeah, I mean, a lot of my private client work is male and I think perhaps, like it's been, very stereotypical it could be. Or it's the other way, which is more of an avoidant sorry, an anxious attachment style, which is where you suddenly panic and you need to reassurance. Now we can put that into work.

And we can put that into friendships as well as romantic relationship and even like family dynamics. So let's just say you are in a job and you both perform the same role and you get an email saying oh, you know, you're both going in for a meeting with HR. Right, Someone's got an anxious tendency. Oh my God, I'm going through every single email and it's exactly what happened. The avoidant person's already booked a flight and they've got three other jobs that they were talking to anyway, and they really don't care and if you're disorganized or AKA anxious avoidant, you're going to experience both.

:: 09:59

Okay, so it's not just fight or flight. There's something in between as well.

:: 10:02

Yeah, totally, and it's more often than not in relationships and you can take these like attachment styles are very, very trendy and romantic relationships Everyone likes to kind of, I think, diagnose other people rather than looking at yourself and my whole MO is looking at yourself and being informed, and then we can try and be more responsible. And the ideal path is obviously security. But under stress we're more likely to exhibit some behaviors in one of these areas, and that was how it would come up.

:: 10:28

Do you think that's born out of fear of being able to look within rather than projecting out? Do you think that's through people's inability to be able to look at themselves and realize there's something going on themselves that you need to deal with first rather than projecting onto the person they're with?

:: 10:41

We'd much rather pick like either pick faults, or that's the reason why, or oh, I haven't heard for him because he had a difficult childhood and he's struggling with avoidant tendencies Like no, he's a dick.

:: 10:52

It's accountability.

:: 10:53

Yeah, that's why yeah. Is that just because people are sort of insecure and they don't really want to accept that they got something wrong with them, or what seems to be the underlying factor why people do do that?

:: 11:04

I think there's a couple of things. I think there's a whole industry and, like you know, of people that are creating products and services to die, to give you an issue.

You know there are some real issues and people really need help and I think that there are a lot of terms being banded around at the moment, like gaslighting and attachment, styles and boundaries, and it's almost become a bit like ick because you hear it so much and but what that's doing is that's not holding space or honoring the victims of this that really are in, say, abusive relationship or really are experiencing some of these dangerous side effects of it. It's become trendy and, you know, edgy and almost like we're interchangeably using these words, almost slang, like, and that, okay, be informed about it, but let's not undermine or devalue anyone that really is suffering with some of these things very much yeah

and I think we need to be careful where we're sitting here and educate ourselves. So the reason I'm interested in all of these things is to work with my clients. But yeah, to your point, why do people not want to go there? Miseducation the fact that it's a bit trendy, I think it does sometimes feel easier, especially if we do struggle with anxiety means you're in your head all the time, means you're catastrophizing, usually in the future. Focus. You can't be anxious about the past. You feel guilty about the past, could it?

:: 12:24

should have been? Yeah, I've thought about that. Could it should have been? Yeah, that's really interesting. Why did I?

:: 12:28

do that Wish I'd done something differently. You know that's past present. We might struggle to be in the present with anxiety.

:: 12:37

I saw this quote the other day and it was you struggle more in your head than you do in reality. What's your view on that?

:: 12:44

I think that's so true yeah. I think that there's no. When I think about the times that I have experienced the highest levels of anxiety, when I think about that, when I think about what I was going through, it was it was me in my head. It was never the actual circumstances, because they move right, you know, like it might be really bad. They've been through some bad stuff but, they've always moved.

You know there's always been. You can check in, you can bring yourself back to the present, you can do a gratitude practice, you can look at just practically where you've come from, even yesterday. You can just take tens of things that happen to you that day and go. I'm ten steps further on and if it's an absolute shocker of a day, you go to bed and you wake up tomorrow and you try again. But yeah, in your head and if you listen to it, if you listen to that loop and what's going on and some of the stuff it's feeding you, and again, if we think back to that when I was doing that job, I shouldn't be trusting what's going on. Those thoughts from lack of sleep, frankly, probably dreadful nutrients, you know anxiety, unhealed trauma, like next level, like you know, on my shoulder all the time.

:: 13:45

Those are not thoughts that I should be listening to and letting them at the controls of my life how do you sort of get away from those thoughts and like you said earlier about sort of breaking everything down, and you had to do that for yourself. Is that just seemingly the only way to really deal with these problems, or is there a way that people listening or watching this can start at home and start practicing? What advice would you give for that?

:: 14:08

so self-inquiry, self-reflection is the best way to do that. And that could be. You know, youtube have got amazing videos on things like that journal prompts. Google it, look on Pinterest. There's some lots. I'm very anti, you know. Let's get as much out here for that. People are not privileged. Let's help people help themselves as much as possible. But, yeah, have a look into, you know, some self-inquiry work.

When something's presenting on the surface, all you're having a thought, usually it's acting on behalf of a fear. Okay, so shame and fears like fear. Shame lives in your body. It's what's left behind by trauma, and shame is I am. So I am and I do a lot of work in trauma.

So I'm just going to throw out a few shame statements that clients have had. I am disgusting, I am a failure, I am unworthy, I am unlovable, I am broken, and if you think about something that maybe you've experienced and it's left behind, there's like shame, hangover. Well, even think about hangovers. You're like, oh, you know, we look at the. Should I would have cut other gilps. You're probably left behind with a shame about some things and that resonates in your system as an I am, and shame is actually very hard to put into words. I've given you some of those statements now.

But to release shame we have to use self-compassion, and shame can act out in our ego, ego behavior. Shame can act out being defensive. Shame can act up being reactive. Maybe we're being more reactive to someone than we would normally. Maybe we're being more emotional, however you want to put that, and we need to look inside as to what it's trying to either like protect or hide, because we are ashamed of our shame. And that sounds like a weird statement.

But if I think I am disgusting, I don't want you to or anyone knowing that. That's really embarrassing. I want to hide. It's what we're going to do. I'm going to mask it. I'm going to try and be perfect. I'm going to people, please. I'm going to try and get everything right. I'm going to try and perform. Put armor on me. I don't want you to see that that I'm disgusting. That's what I think about myself, because you'll never be connected to me and I fear rejection more than anything else, because we all do. That's how we're conditioned rejection.

There's studies where people are being rejected in this actual pain. People are feeling pain from rejection. So how can people start looking at that inquiry? What are maybe some of these I am statements that you're holding inside of you. Is it yours? So I know it sounds like a strange thing to say, but quite a lot of the time is that something someone once said to you? Is it something that you were told in your childhood or to believe? I had a client in on Friday and I'm going to change some details just for confidentiality purposes, but with some presenting with some different health issues. We went really into the childhood and every single time their mother put their meal down in front of them, said I hope you choke wow like that's all they can remember.

I hope you choke and that having children was hard. Having children ruined their life. The parent never have children. It's expensive. I haven't been able to do any of the things I want to do with you. I hope you choke and guess what has got issues physically that might be around some of these things. Obviously I'm obviously kind of skirting around the edge here, but yeah.

:: 17:24

So coming back to the point of you kind of being self-aware, self-reflective of what's going on, and from that I'm going to guess you work with you to sort of cure not cure, that's probably the wrong word but to help bring more awareness to.

:: 17:39

Yeah, but you know, without needing to use a professional, the first line of inquiry, we tend to act at this surface level, like I say. So maybe we do something here today and I feel angry or I feel upset or I'm not okay. What is that trying to inform me of? It's trying to get my attention right. So why would I be feeling that? Maybe I feel like you, um got a glimpse of some of my shame in my system and so I need to, like I say, overact and compensate for that. Maybe I'm struggling in intimate relationships. Why is that line of self-inquiry? I'm trying to protect myself from being hurt. Why would that be? Because I'm horribly traumatic childhood and I've got issues about abandonment. Okay, why would that be? We go down the chain and we keep going to the bottom. I don't know if you've been like diving.

You can't go to the bottom straight away, you'll get the bends you have to decompress every layer so that's what I would say about healing to anybody listening and just understanding yourself. Don't need to go to the bottom straight away. Just allow yourself to go down a layer. That's what I had to do with the vulnerability thing. You know, I put years of armor on me. I put years and years and years of conditioning onto myself and into my system. I couldn't get all of that off straight away. Probably would have been too much. You have to allow yourself to decompress into different environments and, frankly, probably into yourself as well, so that's the individual.

:: 19:00

How would you then say, if you were to, could we get asked us a lot or not? If we ask our audience, we get asked about recognizing in a partner. So if we have people that ask us, how would you give any advice to? If I think my partner has immense anxiety and depression, they're really, really struggling, how would you then cope with giving them advice to give to their partner, if that makes sense?

:: 19:18

yeah, that's really hard and there's a couple of things in that. You cannot help someone who does not want to and is not open to helping themselves. Okay, so that is just something to remember. As much as we may love them, if they are not open to doing any work and if they're completely closed no matter they could be and it could be very good reasons why, and they could have had all sorts of trauma and you can see it all and we could understand that but if they are not willing to step in at all, you've got to leave it. Okay, that's interesting, like I went for a talk the other day with Paul Brunson, who's the matchmaker at Marriedon First Sight, and he said the number one reason that relationships don't work is unhealed trauma that's very interesting.

:: 19:58

Could you talk about not being ready to heal a lot?

:: 20:00

yeah, he actually gave an example of that. So him and his wife I didn't know this, but they'd started a matchmaking agency. It's kind of how he got into part of the role and and someone asked from the audience and said well, what would you do about trauma if people arrived and so we wouldn't work with them for at least six months?

we would insist that that person very rigorous sort of intake process and questionnaires, obviously for matching people, but if they understood that this person had not done work and had trauma in their past, they would not be prepared to match them. Okay, because that was the number one reason that it wouldn't work. So you really do have to. As much as you may love somebody and this can absolutely be true if someone is not ready to step into that healing work and looking at their trauma, you can't do it for them. You can't love them into it and you can't.

You know, you're you're yeah and you're not meeting your own needs in relationship. There's a might be a bit of self-abandonment in there as well, because I love you this much but you're not willing to do the work and there's not capacity for you to do it for everybody. You've got to keep your own needs in mind as well. So I mean that's a possibility. Is that if this person might be moving towards doing some things, maybe at a different pace to you, that you keep your own life online, keep your own hobbies, your own interests, your own friends, your own relationships, those sorts of things. So I'm not saying it's not a go, I'm just saying be wary of that before people get down to maybe a rabbit hole. But to help people, I mean a good way of introducing conversation is to do it outside. Again, paul always said Paul Brunson said, a good way to argue to just step outside of your house.

If you imagine doing that. It changes the environment completely. I always give the advice of going on a walk. Or if you think about being in the car and you have really good chats, then it's your sat side by side. So same as when you're going on a walk, you're side by side rather than direct eye contact, which can be again quite intimidating. It can trigger people, it can almost be a bit too much, you can get flooded. So being on a walk, you're side by side. There's still the connection. There's bilateral eye movement, because you're scanning the horizon constantly when you're walking, which is keeping your prefrontal cortex online. So when we go into emotional situations that we're going into fight or flight or something difficult, we tend to go to our limbic system, the animal part of the brain. You know it's more likely to be flooded again and emotional. If you're doing bilateral eye movement, you're keeping that prefrontal cortex online so we can have a bit more rational, we're able to stay more in our body, be more present. And then the act of walking itself, which you know is keeping yourself your discharging stress in movement as well.

So I would say a lot of the conversation you could have like the best conversation skills, you could be the kindest, most loving partner. Environment is really important. About how you're doing that and also invite the other person. Is this you know, I would like us to talk about X. You know, I feel like we're constantly hitting a crossroads here or I feel like I'm not connecting with you. I'd like to know more about this, maybe potentially difficult subject. When would be a good time for us to do that?

And invite the other person in as well, because you're just like anything you're not gonna get. If somebody tried to do that to me after three nights on the bounce, you know that terrible work week it wouldn't have gone very well.

:: 23:03

Top of the place.

:: 23:03

Yeah, exactly, so I would say think about those things and just yeah, it's a beautiful thing to do, to be able to hold somebody else's pain, but make sure that you're looking after your own needs in that as well.

:: 23:16

I love to go to the topic of toxic relationships. And why do people? This is something that's always confused me, but I don't think it's a straight up answer. Why do people stick around when they're in like a toxic relationship? What's the mental state sort of people have behind that?

:: 23:33

Do you wanna give me a? There's a few ways I can answer this. So do you want to give me a little bit more on what you would mean by toxic relationship, your readings or what kind of things?

:: 23:41

Save someone's, you know being controlling, putting you down. It could be an abusive relationship to some state as well. Why do people stick around like that Cause when it comes to those situations? I feel like if it was me I'd just get out of there, but I don't think a lot of people don't have that option. So how can people sort of, if they are in that listening or watching, if they are in that toxic environment where they're, you know, feeling worse about themselves, being around someone leaving the house and feeling heavier than feeling lighter? What advice would you give to them?

:: 24:16

So there's a couple of things factors that can be attributing to this and one of the things is and I'm gonna be quite stereotypical here so we are attracted. There's a beautiful book by Dr Harbour Hendricks called Getting the Love you Want A bit old school, a bit of a strange title, but it's a really interesting book. And we are attracted. They say to partners usually in like early relationships, maybe when you first start dating, first start having a relationship experience that have the magnified negative traits of one of your caregivers. Okay, so imagine one of your caregivers so my parents, grandparents had a big role, or somebody else looked after you as a child the negative traits of, and then we often would start dating somebody that might have the magnified traits of that caregiver, the reason being romantic relationships in their book are designed to complete our childhoods. That's a big sentence. I'm gonna leave that there.

But it's because it's a bit like if I loved this person enough my father's very violent right. So let's just say I picked a violent man to date. And if I could be good enough, right, if I could be a good girl enough, if I could be perfect enough, if I could make him love me enough and he didn't treat me badly, then somehow it's like I've completed level one of Mario Kart and I've completed my childhood and everything's okay because I must be okay, because I really clearly am enough despite not feeling like enough. So you remember how we go back to unhealed trauma being the.

Thing that really breaks relationship. Then another layer on this is there are five trauma responses. So everybody knows about fight, flight and freeze. The other two people don't talk about very much are flop and form. So flop, pass out cold. I always give you an example, if you know. Like grooms at the altar and you see them passing out in funny videos or like a little impala deer that hop along and they see a pressure and they like pass out, so that's flop.

okay, form is really interesting and I do a lot of one-to-one work where I'm just gonna trigger, warning this, I'm gonna talk about sexual assault. So I do a lot of work with victims of sexual assault, both sexes, and what form does is form is a trauma response. First things first to say about trauma responses. Trauma responses are designed to keep you alive. Okay, so we're here now. If somebody came in with a knife and went to attack us, we are likely maybe to have a different response. Now, joe might go for them, you might try and run, I might freeze, more likely, yeah, yeah.

:: 26:50

It might be that way round.

:: 26:51

But the point being our brains. This amygdala area fires much, much, much faster than your prefrontal cortex to the front of your brain.

Okay, prefrontal cortex stores things like questions, lists, directions, times, dates, like that kind of data. Okay, so it's your more rational cognitive centre. Your broker's area, which is language, sits just behind it. I'm sort of pointing people that can't see what's on my head. That goes offline when we're in danger because, guess what? I don't need to know what I need to buy from Waitrose later or where the traffic might be. I need to keep myself alive. So that's the example of someone coming into a TACUS. But there's another way this could go, Tom. You might pass out and I might start to form with this person, because this could be the only sort of thing in my armory that might keep me alive, because the other situations might not be viable right now. And my brain has selected it for me. Remember that I did not choose it. This is really, really important in trauma and shame.

Okay, so in the context of domestic abuse relationships, there's a lot of evidence and data that suggests that people in relationships with domestic violence is prevalent often have unbelievable sex lives. Right, this sounds quite bizarre. So if you think and I'm gonna put this into male female context just for ease, and again I'm being stereotypical, so forgive me but if the man, let's just say, is the abuser in this relationship with the woman, the shame that you would feel about having a pleasurable sexual experience when someone's just been abusive to you would be incredibly confusing. Like, how on earth could I experience an orgasm from a man who has just beat the crap out of me? But your system, this attachment system, this forenning system, is designed to keep us attached, safe and alive.

This is mind-blowing information. You are able to have an orgasm during rape. That is because there's a thing called non-cordance which happens in your system, so your body can react in a certain way. That is not how you feel and that's actually really important. There's a separate conversation about sex because men could think oh, you're clearly really into this, because you're demonstrating physical signs of being into this and you might not be there at all rationally. This is non-cordance. I'd suggest that everybody reads the book Come as you Are by Emily Nagalski. I'll send you the details, please, tiger. This is really important. So, victims of domestic abuse relationships, you're likely because you're afraid the trauma response has been selected for you. You're forenning to keep yourself safe.

Now I gave a very extreme example just then, but that can still be that I don't want to be shouted at in public, I don't want to be controlled. I don't want to miss out on the opportunity to go out with my friends. I'd behave myself, but I'd be a good girl again. I don't want to miss out on this person's love and connection. And then, as you mentioned, the shame. Why can't I leave? Why haven't I left them? Why have I been here so long?

Well, that's why, because you're in this trauma response of form, and remember that all trauma responses leave us with shame. Shame is the I am, and so what's the I am you'd be having from that? I am broken, I am disgusting, I am a failure, I am unworthy, I'm weak because you can't leave. And then, when you're being sort of operated by this system of shame, that's how you're living your life. You're viewing the entire world through this lens. I spent a lot of my life thinking that I was helpless, hopeless and weak. That was my shame statements I am. I am helpless, hopeless and weak. So I picked relationships, challenges, work, friends based on me viewing my life through that lens.

:: 30:28

That's nuts.

:: 30:30

That is absolutely nuts.

:: 30:32

Just to come back to it. You know you said the point of someone coming in the room with a knife If Joe was to fight, I was to go and you were to pass out. Is there any way you can sort of train your brain? To say I'd fight he flies.

:: 30:44

No, I mean you could in theory if you were a jujitsu champion, you did it every single day, there may be more propensity towards your system in theory. You've kind of training for combat a lot more. I mean you guys played rugby a lot so maybe that you would activate into a system. Also, don't forget, this is going quicker than you're thinking, so your body is like eyeing up, so maybe the protagonist would be smaller and your brain initially goes I can have him right.

So, but this is happening, so, so, so fast. It's not that you're able to think it through. So that's, and that is a really, really, really important point with trauma, because I think people feel very ashamed by how they reacted in a certain situation.

:: 31:26

Because there was a choice.

:: 31:26

Right. So let's just say someone had to go at you or whatever, or on the road. Why did I just stand there and let him do that, or why didn't I answer them back, or I shouldn't have just walked off? Then, like, those are trauma responses that you're eliciting.

You know when you've like you should have said something in the moment you get home, you've got all the answers and you're like damn it, I've got this really cool reply that I could do right now, like probably because you were in freeze, because somebody just you didn't expect that person to, like you know clip me off in the car park and you're a bit like what? So you didn't know in that moment how dangerous or not it was, because you're scanning.

:: 32:00

So, coming back to it, people think it's a choice at the time, correct, and then that's why you feel shame.

:: 32:05

And so for me and here's the other thing so, like you said, what would we do? It could happen again and we could all have a completely different response. So it doesn't mean that because you say, froze, when somebody came in here that every time something difficult would happen you would freeze, but we think that will be the case. And so then you start, like I say, avoiding challenges. You start, you know, or I won't go there, or I don't want to take that flight because I might be a bit busy at that time, or I'm not going to go to that game anymore because too many people there, or I don't really like going to the supermarket unless it's 10 o'clock at night, because we start making choices around sort of often the trauma response and the shame we feel because we don't understand that we didn't choose it.

:: 32:48

So it. Does what's been going on in the day affect that? So obviously this is quite an out of there response. But last Saturday there was a problem on the rugby pitch. I was like straight in, didn't even think about it, was just blank behind the eyes and you know people were scrapping what not. But then a couple weeks before, when it happened, I was like no, I was like straight out of there, which but I tend to like and it sounds like so random. But sometimes I'm like, yeah, straight in, I don't think like you said, but sometimes I'm like absolutely not. But does that make a difference of what's gone on on the day, what's gone on the week, whether I'm stressed, whether I'm happy, whether I'm, you know, could be ill, does that?

:: 33:28

make a difference. More about your physiology, yeah, so your brain obviously knows all about, like, the health of your engine if you like, so you said at that moment, and this also assessed, is assessed everything.

So your brain's on all the time scanning, scanning, scanning. So like it depends on you know there's two different rocks or fines but like, yeah, who are the guys, how big are they, how much energy have you got? How healthy is your system? And so your amygdala's like, because it said it does, does it so quickly? It selected the correct response for that situation and, to your point, you've selected, or it selected for you, rather two totally different responses in a fairly similar situation. So yeah, there are always different factors at play.

:: 34:06

You know you've been doing this for 20 years Now. Is that right? I've done.

:: 34:09

I started doing coaching work about 20 years ago and then I've moved into trauma is more recent. Trauma to me was the missing piece of the puzzle for myself my own healing. And then, as soon as I basically started on this path, this work, about five years ago, it's just something that I couldn't not do.

:: 34:25

Yeah, did you find that that was the last piece of puzzle for you, because that was your journey.

:: 34:29

Definitely. Yeah, I mean it really. Like I said, I lived my life with a lens of I am helpless, hopeless and weak. And when I understood that and when I understood the impact it was having on me and my life, and then how I could heal from it and this is gonna sound really facetious, I don't want it to, but how easy it was to heal from it, that made such a big difference to me.

And I was talking to my PT the other day and again, care for what I said it's gonna help someone related to that and he was like it's really good of you, really good of you to do that. And I just said, look, if I turned up here with back pain and you knew how to get me out of the pain, you'd help me, right? He was like, yeah, and so that's just what I think. I know how to get people out of this pain. And this is the kind of pain that affects you every day and it's something that's in your mind and you think there's something wrong with you. And, yeah, that, for me, is how I lived my life thinking there's something wrong with me, and it was so profound this work, and I know that I can help other people.

:: 35:29

Do you think because you've been in the driver's seat with these problems, things you've gone through at work in the corporate world, things you've gone through in your personal life, it's allowed you to be a 10 times better coach than if you hadn't gone through these problems.

:: 35:41

Oh, definitely. I mean, there's been some people so again, I'm just trying to be very careful what I'm saying there's been some people in that have told me things that I genuinely didn't think humanity was capable of, truly, and I don't think I could have sat there and listened and held the space with one person telling me things that you genuinely can't even imagine would be true, and I have a professional responsibility and also to that soul, frankly to do the very best job that I possibly can to set them as free as possible from something, like I say, beyond most of our comprehension.

:: 36:18

Do you think empathy and experience gives you that, or do you think it's just inane in people?

:: 36:24

I think that has. I mean, it's one of those sayings, I think until you've seen a lot of dark, I can sit in it, so I'm able to sit in it with people. There are people that, quite understandably, aren't able to do that, and this is my path. Did I wanna get knocked around as a kid and be terrified of my father and grow up with travel relationships? No, has it helped me with my job now? Absolutely am. I grateful no, but can I find peace for it? Yes.

:: 36:52

You said when I saw your Instagram, you worked with a lot of army vets. Is that one of the main things you do is working with them and helping them transition into day to day life?

:: 37:03

I sit on the board with charity called Hier, comic Hero UK, which is exactly that.

We focus on transitioning any service leader or veteran from the armed forces into civilian life, because you all appreciate from sports and transition and I know you both are players but there's a huge learning curve, really discombobulating time. It's the transition period, like you'll find. When you start where you are, you're great when you get to the destination in anything in life leaving my marriage, like anything, any new challenge, like sport, everything but you need someone with you during that transitional phase. That's when you need that support. So this is what the charity does beautifully. I would never charge a veteran for my work. That's my pro bono. I charge everyone the same price. It's completely transparent, apart from a veteran. I would never charge a veteran.

:: 37:49

That's amazing, do you find? A lot of the veterans struggle with the same problem when they come to you?

:: 37:56

It depends, actually, because it's a really interesting range of normality, I guess, and it's something that I maybe would think, oh well, you know, wouldn't maybe be normal. That might not be the issue that say is presenting with. And then there's a lot of areas that, thankfully, you can give your skills and help towards, where they have maybe been less supported than they should have been frankly. So yeah, it's different issues when there was obviously the war's going on at the moment as well, but when the Taliban reclaimed Afghanistan a couple of years ago we had a lot of information come around the charity and any charity's working with veterans.

That would be a very difficult time Because obviously all of these people went through serving and lost friends and loved ones and had huge periods of time away and maybe got injuries and various things meant to them physical injuries and when Afghanistan was reclaimed by the Taliban there could have and there was a sense of that clientele needing a lot more support because, it's hugely retreating.

:: 38:59

Where does your love of the vets come from? How curious they.

:: 39:01

Oh, I would say that was from my grandma actually. Because, she was always. Her favorite sort of stories was the time in the war, but also I think I had, like I realized through my training, I had a set of specialist skills like Liam Neeson and Taken, except mine was like coaching and trauma.

:: 39:15

Not killing people.

:: 39:16

Yeah, and I was like oh, what am I going to use it for? And I wanted to. This is quite interesting. So I actually contacted some of the bigger charities for the veterans saying look, I've got this skillset. I really want to help, want to do it for free, and they were like no, oh, ok, thanks. And I remember saying I don't have to do the vets, but can I join me to come and coach you?

:: 39:33

the leadership team For something.

:: 39:34

Like surely you need some help rather than you paying someone else to do it. I do work with some pretty big hitters. They were like no, you're all right. Oh right, thanks.

And then randomly, I was literally trying to give my time for free and people pay quite a lot of money for my time, but anyway, my ego is in the gutter. And then, very serendipitously, I was in a coffee shop on our local high street, joe, and I happened to see a poster for the charity Hiro Hero UK that I'm now involved in, which is very random. I don't even really know how it was there, because they're based in Cardiff, so it was truly serendipity.

And yeah, exactly, and I started off doing they did want me, hooray. And then I was back and then I started doing coaching with the veterans community and then, as it's moved on like a work and advisory board and do a lot more around the fundraising and helping raise progress Do you find?

:: 40:26

a lot of soldiers and ex veterans find solace in fitness and physical fitness and being outside, because I know when. Obviously we've never done anything like that, but I know just from physical fitness of my own mental state it just does wonders for both of us. As Joe and I preach all the time on these podcasts, is that something that helps them a lot when it comes to coming back from these places and being outside working out, sort of escaping your problems for a few hours.

:: 40:55

I mean, I personally have never worked with an out of shape vet, and no matter their age and no matter their injury profile. So there's just and I think that's linked to almost the work ethic as well. I mean, I am biased because I have a huge care and sensitivity towards this community, but the work ethic is just unbelievable. There's no entitlement. One of the reasons I wanted to get involved with that community is I'm frankly way too selfish to dedicate my life to saving this country and that was not something I was prepared to do and I felt that the only thing I could do around that was to honor that community in my way. So I think there is something in this inherent kind of standards that they keep for themselves and fitness and the foundation of mentally strongly. They probably look more like mental toughness and resiliency, and my charity mainly is run by all ex SAS and.

SBS, which is incredibly cool.

:: 41:52

And they are next level because they're all ah, it's amazing.

:: 41:54

And so we get to go to Special Forces Club and do all sorts of cool stuff and they're all basically made of carbon fiber where they've fallen out of helicopters and stuff. But the way that they're the kindest, most gentle, loving people, but it really is. I mean, I think they have to be very patient with me because I can't do the acronyms and I don't know all the way and they're like oh god, here we go again. She's got the wrong wall, but you know fine. And so when we're doing events and things like that, but they just they're so humble.

I'm always struck by how humble that community is and I just feel like they are. I almost feel a bit embarrassed sometimes that they're kind of underserved in consideration for what they are going through and their families, who are maybe lacking their partner and their support for that period of time. There's a stat that blows my mind with the Armed Forces, which is that it's only. I'll ask you guys, how many people do you think leave year on year that are wounded, injured and sick from the army, that are discharged, which I think the percentage is? That's why they have to leave.

:: 42:54

Do you want me to start mate?

:: 42:56

No, I wouldn't want to play high Roughly.

:: 42:59

Let's go say like 30%. Oh, that's enough. Oh, am I wrong? I just play high, Wait 50%.

:: 43:04

It's 12%, 12%, only 12%, 12.40%. I need to get the this year's figures. It's very low. That's not the reason that people are leaving Quite. A lot of the time they don't want to leave there might be. There was a lot of time for budget cuts. That's so interesting. So, like you guys were sport and having to leave sports and athletes that also worked with career ending injury that you didn't want to leave. Well, there was a cut. You know like a club went bust Like so in the Armed Forces.

I thought it was huge, I thought it'd be really high I thought it'd be like oh God, everyone's coming out and they're unable to carry on because they're wounded and you're sick, and it's not the case. So actually there's a huge requirement for transitional support to find meaningful work and employment for that community.

:: 43:43

Well, there's also the, not only the unemployment, but also the homeless. I mean the stats on how at? Least the ex-vets who are now homeless with absolutely nothing. I mean the stats, is insane. I mean a lot of homeless people who have served is astronomical. So I'm sure there's a part of that as well. That's why they give people help after they've served to get into the workplace. So it's just, it's incredible.

:: 44:04

I also find it funny. You said they're the most humble people and this is something I've just picked up on in life is, I always think, the most in a male perspective, from the guys I've met with rugby and stuff, they're the most alpha, most in a way. Dangerous men are always the most humble, kindest. They don't have anything to prove, they just are. And I always think when you meet these ex-army people that's SAS or I've had the pleasure of having dinner with a few of them is like they're all the same.

They're all built from the same cloth. They're all incredibly humble, but there also can be dangerous people inside, and I think that's one of the best things in our cases, men, is being able to control your emotions and being able to be a great guy, whether it's being polite around people, not having to show off, not having to act tough. I think they are, in my opinion, the people I aspire to be like. So, from working with people like that, is that a trait which pretty much all of them have and that's kind of built into them.

:: 45:03

Definitely, and I think as well. I love what you said then. By the way, being strong and kind is just perfect, but if you were to put an act on I mean, they talk about this in all the books like Navy Seals Work everything you cannot put on an act when you're serving. If you're like Joe, you all right, yeah, yeah, I'm fine, I'm great to lead this one and like you're not, you just screw the entire group.

You know you've just ruined everyone. Like, if you're really not doing that well today, like you need to say so, actually they're amazing with vulnerability, and vulnerability is directly linked to courage.

So being hugely courageous, being in the armed forces, let's say you have to be fully, fully vulnerable. I have to let you carry me if I can't do it. We talk about selection a lot and obviously everyone gets very excited about it, including me, and I've heard the stories a million times and they're like whenever the guys are talking again. But every story about selection and what made them pass was not some like death-defying physical. I mean, obviously you're insanely fit but you're mentally somewhere else.

And one of the guys, one of the founders and on the board, a guy called Nige, who is an absolute legend. He said that on selection for him in the Breckins he had so many blisses on his feet. They were basically like open both. You know just there was no skin left on the bottom of his feet and so your sleep deprived on purpose. You know they're just jangling your brain on purpose as well as your body, that him and a friend would get up 40 minutes early bearing my just sleeping for, like I don't know, two hours a night. Maybe You're running a marathon every day on the Breckins and they'd found out or worked out that pain takes 40 minutes to metabolize in your body.

So they basically each blessed him took a turn to bandage one of his feet and he would hobble around, to start with for 40 minutes until the whistle's going, the lights are on and off. You go again, knowing that he could run.

Now his friend had a problem with his back, those discs that were slipped, and I always forget the name of this. So this is why I need them, need them to be of the dictionary of terms, but the special pack that you have, the weighted pack, so he would carry his friends and they knew where the checkpoints were, and so Nige would give it back to him like half a mile up from the checkpoint.

And it was never the, you know, it wasn't this sort of death defying one man, story of greatness I mean they're all incredibly great, but it was. It was no ego and being beyond one another. You know, doing these things together being really vulnerable, Like you've got another guy strapping your feet up.

:: 47:20

Yeah.

:: 47:21

You're in pain. You've got another guy carrying your pack Like and they are passing selection, but that's incredible to me.

:: 47:28

You have to be able to trust them as well.

Right, yeah, because that's something I really struggle with, from my point of view, is trust. I've really struggled to trust people outside of my family and it's just, I think, when it comes to things like that, you just can't, can't, second guess it can. You have to be able to trust the person opposite you and I think that's what these, in a way these not events, what they call these practices meant to break you. But I also think you know, from breaking you they make you. You know these are arguably the strongest people on the planet mentally, and when they, my dad worked with a few SAS people and a few Marines and he was like mentally tough as people you ever meet, because they've done stuff no one else has, and people like David Goggins, I'm not sure of you.

Yeah, you know all the stuff he says, where he just pushes himself. I saw this, this clip of him the other day and it's like a four person. Four person like marathons through the desert where they just run like constantly for 24 hours. He just did it on his own, just did it on his own. Everyone was in teams of four and he was like nah it's good to do it on my own.

:: 48:30

Yeah, they went to like say he was at the big shop after like that. Yeah, he was like yeah pretty, pretty chill.

:: 48:34

But stuff like that is like he's an ex. You know, he did all the army things. He did like the RAF on the army, the Marines. He did everything just because he wanted to do the training. People like that are just like you know, I kind of envy them in a way. I'd love to be like that, but it's just. It takes a different, different type of person to get to that level, to keep breaking yourself down every single day and keep going which is, just in my opinion, incredibly admirable Linking that to trauma.

:: 49:00

I mean closer to home, someone like Ashley Kane, I think you might know yeah, he's doing very similar events.

:: 49:06

These feats that he's achieving since his poor daughter died.

:: 49:08

I mean, it's what he discusses achieving week in, week out is is nuts. I wanted to ask you about the link to that and trauma. Is that some people even closer to home for me is that they've since losing, since loss and grief, they're throwing themselves into things. Could you argue that that's basically covering up for something and not actually dealing with the problem itself?

:: 49:29

You could say that that is the pursuit of meaning and purpose that is getting them through every day. Is there likely potentially to be a point when your body may ask you to rest, when your mind is ready to unpack and heal another layer of that? Absolutely, you know he's doing something in the highest purpose, which is honouring the death of his daughter, and you know raising money for the cause and doing beautiful things, and then you've got that buy in, you've got. I mean, when we talk about purpose and meaning, which is the ultimate, for all of it like.

I was literally listening to Poggess in the way here you know Peter Attya, so he was had an amazing guest, I don't know his name. It's brilliant podcast and he's saying that you know purpose and meaning is like the protein of the macronutrient profile you need for happiness, like you can kind of get by without the others a bit, but you can't you'd fall apart without protein, and that's purpose and meaning.

So yeah, ashley is doing this unbelievably purposeful cause At some point may. I've no doubt he is as well. I don't know what. What else he's doing. He's obviously written his book and, you know, processing as much as he can, but in my experience of trauma, trauma is something that you know you need at some point. You will be facing different layers of it.

I mean also when the trauma response. I talked about your prefrontal cortex. When it's offline, you're in your amygdala, it's actually tagging stuff right. So that's why, even though you can't remember it at the time, like something can happen to you and you can be like what happened, what happened you got. I can't remember what they said, but I can remember what they were wearing.

Or I can't remember, do you know what? I don't remember exactly what he said, but he was right up in my face and you know, or the car came this way or so that's. That's like trauma for you. But then later on, you could get triggered by I'm looking at red curtain up, but you could get triggered by a guy with a red scarf because, oh, that was in the corner of my eye at the same time. And your, your body, as you start to find safety, when you start to heal, will allow in some of these things that were previously unavailable.

So, that's why we can seem triggered, and it can be. It can feel very paradoxical, because it can seem like why the hell is this coming up now, like it's been three years since they passed and I thought I was okay and I've done all these brilliant things and I've, you know, got through it all. And why is it that now I'm feeling really bad about a toxic relationship that ended four years ago? Why is it I'm doubting myself about trusting again? Why is it that I keep thinking about that person that betrayed my trust or whatever it might be? It's because, actually, it's like a compliment from your system that you've got to a place of foundational safety, that you're able to unpack this next layer, because at that time of deep, deep grief, you just needed to get through.

:: 52:06

Okay, that's really interesting. We put. I said that same time we put out poll on our Instagram where people could ask questions for you, you know, get some advice. We said we keep it anonymous. But one question we got was like you know, we both, we both talk on what's happened. We were like yeah, that's just a great question, and one that kind of hit home for this person. Do you want to read it out? Yeah, yeah.

:: 52:27

I've got it written down here. So how much does a tumultuous relationship with a parent impact that same child's adult life?

:: 52:34

So again on this podcast, I literally listened to other way here. They said it was about 52% was relational, which means your let's just say your mom literally gave you 52% of your trauma and unhappiness, if we're looking at happiness. So that was a stat from that podcast. But in my experience it's like anything. It depends how much you let it. So as a child, you have no choice to break this down a bit further. Until you're seven, you don't see yourself as emotionally separate from your caregivers. This is also the place you form your limiting beliefs Okay, where we self sabotage from in the future Such fun.

So like if you grew up in a household like I did, it was like, well, that sounds too good to be true, yeah, and nothing coming. Having good comes easily. Money doesn't go on trees. It's really expensive, Right. So I grew up in a household where, if something sounds good, it must be something wrong with it.

:: 53:27

And you're going to get screwed over.

:: 53:28

So don't believe it. Like nothing's basically that lovely, Everything's a bit hard. Getting money is hard, holding on to money it's very hard. Okay, so that becomes my belief system. That's one set of things. The other set is the emotional, very like not having emotional autonomy until after your seven. So my daughter is seven, seven and a half, and let's just say last I'm just giving an example let's just say she was five. I can't remember an example. I'm very chill and I'm very conscious of this. I mean she'll still be in a therapist's office, I've no doubt at some point. But, like you know, I remember we got. I couldn't work out how to get out of this pot. We got locked into Paris airport, basically because our flight was delayed for 20 hours and I couldn't work out how to get out of security once you're in, and it was all really hectic and really tired Anyway, and I was beginning to get a bit panicky. I'm really tired, it's really late. Single parent on my own in an airport, really worried about her.

She's so tired, bless her, and I was beginning to get very unlike me, a little bit like where are we going to go? Is there going to be a hotel room? The flights are being cancelled left, right and centre and I could see her starting to take it on. She's literally embodying my emotions. It's almost like you're throwing it onto her.

:: 54:32

Absorbing your stress.

:: 54:33

Check yourself right now. It's like right check yourself right now.

It's like baby and I always say to her like Mummy doesn't know the answer right now, but I will figure it out. You know, like so just I can see her taking it on. So, yes, if you grew up in a household where you had one or more parents that didn't emotionally regulate, like that lovely client of mine, hope you choke. Hope you choke, you know every day, or you had other things happening, or they're in toxic relationship systems so they're self-abandoning, which means they're not meeting your needs. There's so many things that could be going on and happening all the time. When you're seven, you start creating emotional autonomy, so you're aware of having some control of your own emotions and like your own feelings being separate to that of your parents. But that can make you feel more distanced from them as well. Doesn't necessarily feel positive. Then you've got these childhood held beliefs, which become self-sabotage behaviors when we're older. So for me let's just say stuff starts going really, really well, kicks in. Oh well, it must be too good to be true.

:: 55:28

You start to believe that everything is good. Avoidant tendencies.

:: 55:30

This is a really great guy. We're having a really great time. This is a really good relationship. There's literally nothing wrong. I should fuck it up somehow. Like here we go, hand me the phone to text all my toxic exes, you know like what?

:: 55:42

can.

:: 55:42

I do to sabotage this the most, because everything is great because, this is too good to be true.

So if you think, if the person that wrote that in, what is the effect Relationally? It's been. It's documented that about 52% of your trauma it can be relationally, if you like given to you. That's not genetic, it's relationalist behavior. And then you have the impacts of your belief systems that are now things that self-sabotaging you as you're older. So the good thing about that is it's not necessarily genetic. You can be predisposed to certain things like depression, alcoholism. There's lots of anecdotal evidence about that studies things like that.

The reason you need to know that is because then you can look at, maybe, where you might be vulnerable to certain things and look at behavior systems, habits that you either want to form or stay away from. Okay, but the answer is, this is an impact that kind of been had on you, but because it's not genetically, it's not part of your DNA, you are able to work and heal yourself irrespective of that.

:: 56:42

That's so interesting. Thank you for that. Yeah, that's amazing.

:: 56:44

Put it this way, I've never laid a finger on my child, you know, and I've grown up in a very violent household Like I've never, very rarely, raised my voice. You know we have a beautiful relationship. I am not the product of my childhood.

:: 56:56

So I've often said this is that I've Tom and I's growing up with our fathers been very, very different. Tom's dad has been very hands-on and involved. My dad hasn't. So I've said this a time, a few times, when I was one of the guests and since we've had other guests on as well is I've looked at his behavior and seen how. That's why I don't want to be so, that's how I treat people that I'm, you know, my loved ones, etc. So that's an example of someone as a product, not a product of their environment, and trying not to be so. That's really interesting, really interesting.

:: 57:25

Yeah, I just want to give whoever that person is hope that they might be feeling a weight of what has happened to them and I'm sorry because it's happened to a lot of people, including myself, but you know we're talking about it.

But don't think that there isn't, that it's a poor prognosis, because it's not. And I'm also not going to say you can fix it in five minutes by downloading an ebook, because you can't. But you can do, like I say, self discovery, self reflection, some of the things that we've talked about. The beautiful thing with healing is you can heal it. The paradox of healing, Great thing with healing is you can take one step, do that and something else will open up to you. The shitty thing about healing is you'll never be done.

So, just take it as like a. This is a gentle jog. We're not sprinting a marathon through life and you will find strange places where you get triggered again.

:: 58:13

And yeah, this has been eye opening. I'm going to end it on this is what one piece of advice would you give to your younger self from stuff you know now?

:: 58:24

I would say never take directions from someone that hasn't left home Too much noise and you? Stop she trusting yourself, as I'm saying, it's not just your intuition is never wrong. That's amazing.

:: 58:42

Thank you so much for coming on this.