#22 | Will Adolphy (P3) - What Is Healthy Masculinity and Overcoming Societal Pressures

I said to him dad, two choices. Things are luring boys in, because it's not just Andrew Tate saying that, it's the world. I can't think my way to good action, I have to act my way to good thinking. Grief for the disconnection between myself and my dad that I had never really acknowledged. And it's not just me and my dad, you know, speaking to him, it's him and his dad. Right, it's my granddad and his dad. And we go back. We go back. We go back. You know my dad got an I love you from his dad once, I think a couple of weeks before he passed away you from his dad once, I think a couple of weeks before he passed away um wow.

I've. I've had way more than that in these last two years with my dad and I'll finish on this just and same with my mum. It's incredible what's happening, but this story sums it up. I'm sat with my dad in a coffee place you know we're having a coffee and it just occurred to me to ask him. I said he's so, he's, he's got a diagnosis right advanced cancer at the moment. And I said to him dad, two choices. First one you don't have cancer, you live a longer life, but you don't experience this connection that you and I have now. Or two you do have cancer, you live a shorter life, but you do get to experience the connection that you and I have right now. Which one would you choose? And he just kind of smiled and he said and maybe there was some slight nervousness there, I don't know he just said the latter you know, and yeah, I just, I teared up, I teared up and I just thought, wow, like I respect

him. You know I respect him. I really felt the respect and I felt that I said to him the other day and I said to my mom I'm so lucky to have you as parents, so lucky to have you as parents. But to really and they explain this at the hoffman process there's something called cheap forgiveness and this blew my mind. I forgave my parents up here and I'm pointing to my head when I went out for a meal with my dad. Emotionally down here in my gut there was resentment, there was a disconnect, there was withdrawing. I didn't want to speak to him up here. I was like he. He tried his best. So that's what Hoffman calls cheap forgiveness. Now, to get to embodied forgiveness, I needed to go through expressing rage in a safe container, accessing the grief. The grief is the real thing of the disconnection between myself and my parents that's so interesting.

You talked about the point of um, what's it? Oh, I've said a mind blank the self um, where you're worrying about other people's views, right? Uh, that's everything we seem to talk about on this podcast. In my opinion, the people that come on links back to oh, self-conscious, apologies, everybody is. People feeling self-conscious about what other people think of them, people not feeling like they're seen by other people and people lacking a purpose. They were kind of always the three. There's all. I feel like on every episode there's always a link to one of those three. What's your view on that?

well, that's so. So lack of purpose and not feeling seen yeah, yeah, and like being self-conscious.

What other people think being self-conscious?

yes, I think to me you've got the existential component there, and jamie alluded to this in the last episode about the spiritual side of things, right, and that's something I haven't really spoken about today. But I grew up as an atheist, let's say, um, and then in my early 20s, I described my kind of worldview as very nihilistic. Right, nothing means anything, um, and in going through these experiences, I where I describe it as my heart broke, but it broke open and so I really yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that's how it feels, right, there's like an opening and gratitude started to come in. I started to feel grateful for stuff and synchronicity started to happen. And I still have a part of me that's very skeptical about any sort of spiritual narratives that I hear. But ultimately that skeptic is a lot more relaxed because it's seen the data and the improvement of my mental health. That's, that's the right. It's like quite scientific, this part of me. So it's like I want data, you know, and this part of me can't.

It just goes right, there's something to it. That's what it, that's what it knows right now and believes. Right, there's something to this idea that, uh, there is something out there guiding me or something within me guiding me. Right, this sense of intuition. And I firmly believe that we have an intuitive self, that it is guiding us and that through meditation, um, I can start to, to tune into that meditation. I can start to tune into that. So the purpose side of things for me came from going to the retreat, putting down the phone, listening to that intuition. And the intuition was almost like what is life asking of me, not what do I want from life. That was the acting right, that was the Oscar, that's what I want. I want to feel that's going to help me to cope with life, whereas now it's like a bit more open, a bit more asking what is life asking of me right now? And it turns. You know, I asked that to myself this morning, before I came here, and a voice within me said to be grounded and enjoy it love that.

I wanted to touch on the work you're doing now in school et cetera. And do you think there's a part of you because I sort of picture myself in school a lot and I picture you standing up there in assembly chatting to me as my younger self Do you think there's a part of you who is that sort of that schoolboy still who wants to give something back to what you maybe didn't have when you were at school?

Definitely, joe, definitely. Yeah, I think there's a part of me that is still I'm still working through a lot of the school stuff, you know and there's a part of me that would have could have really, really needed someone at school, yeah, coming in talking about anxiety, talking about mental health, talking about what it's like to be in an environment where you feel self-conscious about BO and dandruff and all of these human things, and then to also have someone come in and say there is a healthier way, possibly, of expressing masculinity, and this is what masculinity is. Um, yeah, and here it. Take it or leave it, it's up to you. If you're curious, I can show you what's worked for me. And then, yeah, that would have really, really helped.

and so you're right, I think I am definitely speaking to the, the younger part of me I love that we're running out of time, but I really wanted to touch on uh, we mentioned andrew tate earlier and you've done a documentary. Yes, I'm not sure when that's out, which will be amazing to see what. What was the sort of documentary about and your views on andrew tate as a whole? I know he's quite a controversial character. How long have we?

got yeah, that face was for how much time? Because this is a whole.

You know, maybe I wanted to add that in that, in yes, of course I'll try and, um, give a kind of succinct thing and then, uh, yeah, if there's another time, happily to dive into the whole hour, yeah, okay.

So in my early 20s I found myself watching content online that fueled my resentment towards the world, but it kind of relieved it as well, because the content said something like this community does not care about you. And this community was in my mind at that time anything woke quote-unquote, uh, and anything feminist quote-unquote. So at that time, when I was struggling with my mental health, there was this narrative online there still is to some degree and um about male privilege and how men are oppressors and men have it a lot easier than women, and that used to really activate me because I felt unseen. I was really struggling with my mental health. And then I'm listening to his content that goes, yeah, they don't like you. And I'm like, yeah, I don't think they do like they don't, I like you, come this way, right. That's what the content was doing and that's what andrew tate's doing, um was doing and that's what Andrew Tate's doing. I believe that's my, my take on it and, yeah, there was this sense of direction that I got from it. You know, go to the gym, get the muscles, get the women, and it's really understandable how these things are luring boys in, because it's not just Andrew Tate saying that it's the world society. Right, we get this messaging all over the shop social media, movies, music. You get the girl, you make the mons, you have the business right, you are a legend, or whatever it is right. That's what I wanted to be. You are a legend and I still feel that in me now when I go to the gym. You know, and I still feel that guy within me.

So that, to me, is the first part. It's like having that awareness of what the man box is and this idea of what a real man is. This, this idea of a man that I am trying to be right, and andrew tate is the encapsulates a 14 year old's view of masculinity. Right, and we, I'm sure and I hope you don't mind me including a we here, but we can understand as men what it was like to be a teenager, but before tiktok, right, what that would be like.

Now we'd be listening to andrew t right, the stats are there. We probably would. I know I would. Yeah, definitely Right. So what's happening is that there's this polarization Boys are being alert to the right because the right saying we care about you, and girls and women are being moving towards the left on the political spectrum, and there's resentment in both ends. There's resentment towards the left on the political spectrum, um, and there's resentment in both ends. There's resentment towards the damage that what's being called traditional masculinity has caused to the world, or the man box, and there's a resentment from men towards the resentment right yeah and that's what the polarization is.

so what happened to me was I was pointing my finger out at women and wokeism and this content was helping me yeah, yeah, and it was this big finger point out. But I was stuck in my resentment towards the world and I felt like I had a point, because it really does feel like the world hates men at times. Right, it really does, and at the moment there isn't any constructive conversation happening around what works about masculinity, what doesn't. How can we evolve? There are no alternatives being provided. So boys at school were receiving pressure from both ends.

so true pressure to be a lad or a man from their peers and pressure from teachers or society or women or girls to not be toxic, Right. So it's confusing. And then Andrew Tate comes along on the phone communicating it in such an articulate, very alluring kind of very specific way that my brain is going to be able to process that so easily through TikTok, through entertainment videos, that whole package that the message just seeps in do these things and you will get laid, or you'll be a man. Now healthy masculinity turns out is a lot harder to sell because it's far more ambiguous, because we haven't worked out exactly what it is. There isn't a formula, there isn't a do these three things and you'll be a healthy, masculine man right.

So we're not there yet with that, and that's what I'm trying to do, that's my work. It's like how can I communicate what it's like? And so what I lead with is my story. Ultimately, my mental health is so much better. This is how it's better, this is what I did and this is what the man box is. This is how I view it. Do you resonate with that? You know, do you understand that there's a pressure to be a certain way? And if you do, do you want to opt out? Do you want to step outside of the box? And the final thing I'll say on that is stepping outside of the box does not mean we have to leave everything behind within the box.

Right Interesting.

Yeah, and what I mean by that is, for example, being stoic. There's nothing innately wrong with being stoic, yeah. However, being stoic in every moment, that's where it gets harmful. Let's say, a crisis happens. In the crisis, stoicism may be really useful. When I get home after the crisis and I'm with my partner or my family, stoicism probably not so much. That moment might call for some vulnerability, but vulnerability is outside of the box currently. So if we're in the box and confined by it, we don't feel like we can access that, meaning we have to cut ourselves off from all these other aspects of who we are. And so stepping outside of the box does not mean you will lose touch with your masculinity. It means that you will go through the process of discovering different ways to express it and express yourself. And so the question I always ask is where would you be, what would you be interested in if you stepped outside the box?

yeah, just really quickly. I just want to touch on one thing you just said is if, if I'm a 14 to 16 year old lad and that's a really hard age for little boys as you and I can test the so too oh yeah, or for mums and dads might be listening or watching this going.

I've got a 14 year old lad. I'd love to know how I can teach or guide my son down this road of how to be a good man, not in a toxic way, but also not in this way that we've been guided down by this sort of wokeism that you're talking about earlier. What would you say that the key things to sort of teach our young men now, who might be slightly confused by this sort of being pulled to the left or pulled to the right thing? How do we go in the middle? What would you say?

yeah, great question. I'm still working that out, but what I would say to that today is that young people tend to learn via osmosis more than they do do this right? Um, so they learn more from andrew tate in his images of women and cigars and the muscles, probably than they do from actually what he's saying some of the time. Um, so what I would say to that is it's like how do we create a safe environment for our boys to express themselves, to experiment? The key is autonomy. If they want to go down that route, then that is their choice. Fundamentally, however, how do I create a dynamic between me and my son so that he feels comfortable enough to express his opinions to me? He's only going to feel comfortable enough to express his opinions to me if I'm engaging with him in a dynamic that keeps his autonomy intact, so that he knows if, if he expresses himself, he's not going to get shamed by me. Right, I'm going to get curious.

You know, I was at a school recently and it was the most amazing Q&A where I did the. You know, and you never know what reception you're going to get Did it? We got the Q&A, and then all the boys suddenly feel so excited. You know they're putting their arms up, they're going. Yes, oh my God, what do you think when Big Top G said this? You know what this and I had a one boy come up to me goes, he goes, do you, sir? Do you think that smoking cigars increases your testosterone?

Yes, it was so you know, it was amazing, and I said I just I pause and I said I don't actually know.

You know, I haven't read any studies, my intuition is telling me no, but what do you think? And he said I agree with you, actually, but Top G said it, so I thought it was true. And in that moment, with me not judging him and this is a moment where I've been able to do it by the way, I just want to clarify, I don't do this every moment If I've had my wits about me, if I'm regulated, then I can. I know I can, and that's what I teach to staff and parents. It's that in that moment of him expressing his opinion and not feeling judged, we had a transformative conversation, because I was able to offer mine, prompt him, and this is the thing that happened to me my worldview expanded when, all of a sudden, I was in a space where I'm having a chat with someone who identifies as a feminist, where, for the first time, I became friends with someone who was non-binary. And then I started to have these conversations and I was like, oh my goodness, we're actually really alike in certain ways, right, and we're humans and I can relate to you and you can relate to me. And in those conversations where I felt heard and seen and they felt heard and seen.

My worldview started to broaden. It started to to become less rigid, more open. But that only happens if I provide the fertile ground for it to have happened, and so that includes this is one thing I'll leave is connection before reason, and what I mean by that is if someone brings their opinion to me and I go straight to that's wrong or whatever shuts down the conversation. And so many young people are so used to teachers and other people like and parents relating to them in that dynamic, like I know right, right, you know wrong, so true, right.

So if I'm able to connect with them, first through empathy, and that is by me trying to see things from your point of view, right, and really taking my time a bit and go okay, yeah, I see what you're doing there, I see what you're doing there, yeah, is it this and that? And. And they go yes, that's what it was. I go, okay, great, great, you'll feel that connection. When that connection's there, then you can jump to reason and you might challenge them, you might go. I'm going to challenge you, but even in challenging, your autonomy is still intact. I'm not trying to persuade you. There's no pressure behind what I'm saying, and this is very difficult because it means that.

I have to take responsibility for what the opinion that someone's sharing, the impact that's having on me. And teachers and parents, understandably, are going to find it very difficult at first to have these conversations because it might expose some stuff within them you know that they haven't looked at and that's why it really is a concerted effort here. It's not just on the boys, it's not just on the girls, it's not just on the parents, it's not just on the girls, it's not just on the parents, it's not just on the staff, it's not just on the men's workers that are going in there. It's, you know, we're all a part of this and and it's, it's difficult, but, my goodness me, is it worth it. You know, when I see the bravado drop and I see one of the boys engage, actively, engage and share their opinions, and you know, and they feel excited and, yeah, it's worth it every time, I can see how passionate you are about it as well.

That's awesome. I'm gonna end it on this. We ask this question the end of every single podcast, and it's if you have one piece of advice just give to listeners and viewers of a lesson that you've been taught over your lifespan, what would that piece of advice be? Um always hard to think of one.

That's what everyone says yeah, I would say that there's two sayings.

I love sayings and people can remember them, so I'll give the kind of link to one another. One of my favorite sayings when I was training was healing isn't about feeling better, it's about getting better at feeling, and that really hit home. And so if you can find capacity to feel your feelings in a safe space and if you don't feel you have that capacity, then support, hopefully, is always there for you and you know that. But if you can find even just a little moment, maybe it's when you're on that walk. Just take your earbuds out and just see what it's like, breathe, tune in and just start that process. It's like a muscle, it's like a workout.

And then, when you get to that point where you feel safe enough to start opening up, there's a saying that really really connects with me and it's I can't think my way to good action, I have to act my way to good thinking.

And what I mean by that is that sometimes I can get like trapped in a fear response where I'm waiting for my thoughts and and a feeling to say, yeah, go to that open mic night and play your song, right, but actually it doesn't come. It doesn't come, and so sometimes I then go right, do I have capacity to act on this and I feel like, yes, now that I've got the support, great, maybe I'll line up a support call afterwards, whatever it is, just to help me feel safe enough to step outside my comfort zone. Um, and that is where I'm learning the life is that I want to live because I'm here to thrive and not everyone is, and I understand, or not, everyone has values, that, maybe something like that but I'm here to thrive, I know, and thriving happens just outside my comfort zone and I don't want to go too far out because that might overwhelm me and destabilize me, but I want to go just far enough so that I'm out of my comfort zone and I'm alive.

Amazing, Absolutely. What an episode Will. Thank you so much for coming on, my friend. Thanks for coming on, mate.