#1 - Joe Moriarty - Escaping the grip of Anxiety & Depression

:: 00:00

Joe is a 29 year old PT based in Surrey. He's suffered with anxiety and depression for a large portion of his life, especially through the ages of 18 to 19. Joe is involved with a few mental health charities, but one in particular in the Grace Deer Trust, which is very close to his heart. On the podcast, we're going to be discussing my personal experiences and Joe's experiences on how to deal with anxiety and depression. I, like many men, can relate to these issues and this is the main reason I invited Joe on the podcast to talk today. First of all, I just wanted to discuss the main reason I brought you on and we touched on it before, but in terms of having male role models, that was huge because I didn't feel like I had anyone I could look up to personally when I was going through stuff, and that was one of the main reasons why I'm doing what I am doing and this is the path I've chosen, and I know we touched on it briefly before, but I know yours is quite similar to what I'm doing as well.

:: 01:01

Yeah, I think certainly growing up with three sisters actually didn't help that, because I got on with them better than my dad and he wasn't particularly involved with that and it wasn't really spoken about. So certainly growing up with a more female dominated family certainly meant that the girls kept themselves themselves and they could understand each other better and I sort of had an understanding of not being able to talk about it. Or I think it all came too late for me, I think when I turned sort of 1890, now it's when I started to come to a head, whereas before that I didn't have any idea about mental health or the stigma around that, or anxiety, depression, that kind of thing, and it all sort of hit me at once. So there's certainly the male role model that I think I had no one to turn to or I felt like I couldn't anyway, I'm a bit like yourself.

I think you just grew up with an understanding of either not being able to speak about it or not knowing the right things to say, and certainly hold that the man up thing was just a huge thing. So yeah it was the sort of man up get on with it type thing yeah, I completely agree with that.

:: 01:56

I think for me as well was I felt so awkward trying to talk about it in terms of I didn't really know what was going on. I didn't understand why I was feeling so depressed at like 16. So mine spiked around 16, 16 to 17,. You know, I just finished in a relationship and I felt like everything was just going wrong in my life. But when I look back at it, I just think I held so many emotions in, especially from, I say, about 12 onwards, and I had a few things happen to me. So, for example, like my mum had breast cancer and that really hit me for six.

But I kind of didn't realise that at the time when I was going through these things, and it was only until more and more added up, I just sort of burst at like 16 and 17. I didn't really know what was going on, didn't want to talk to anyone, didn't want to sort it. And as soon as I did start talking about it and I opened up to my family, I was like listen, I'm really struggling. I had some time out of school. I moved school for sixth form. Probably wasn't the best idea, looking back at it, for my mental health. But in terms of that, talking to my family and having like a close knit group of friends for me was enormous and I just worked through it every day, chipped through it, and here I am now. In a way I'm sort of glad I went through that experience to the point where I can help people today. But in terms of role models that you touched on before, like I didn't really have anyone, I just I looked up.

I look up to my dad massively and I look up to my brother as well and those were two role models for me and just the way they conduct themselves and stuff out and for me that's kind of the way I wanted to model myself around. Getting through my mental health was being able to talk to my dad, my brother, my mom and stuff and learn from them and go from there.

:: 03:46

Yeah, that's. It's similar, but also quite different to me is every male model I've had in my life was always sort of let me down in one way or other.

So, like my dad and I don't have a great deal in common other than sport, and that's obviously we'll touch on that later is the sports side of things massive. But so my mom remarried and he wasn't a nice man at all and I've you know, a lot of my stuff is trauma based around him. So all the men have either come into my life and let me down. So for I've often, you know, my mom is.

I've often said this before to her is my mom saved my life, like definitely, if it wasn't for her I probably wouldn't be here.

So my mom and my three sisters have been a massive sort of massive thing for me. I'm a coup to sort of keep me going. So it's nice for you that the men in your life have helped you through that and sort of steered you down the right path, whereas I sort of learned the hard way. I sort of looked at their behavior, who I've had in my life and gone. That's how I don't want to be and that's that. It took me a long, long time to realize that by, I think, watching their behavior turn me into a monster at times and certainly when you're 16 to 18, you could put it down to sort of male hormones and growing up in a female dominated environment and being a bit of testosterone field idiot. But actually I think a lot of that was down to sort of not being able to compartmentalize how I felt, and then nothing sort of turned into rage and which is we're getting coming back to what we'll talk about later, as sports really helped me as well.

Yeah what's the sort of channel that into playing rugby or whatever it is?

:: 05:06

So that's definitely helped me for sure, for those who don't know, obviously I met you through rugby and we can touch on that now, actually is is rugby is for me, is is not just a sport, it's. It's taught me routine, it's taught me discipline, it's taught me how to control anger. It's, it's everything to me in terms of how I've grown as a person, and I think that's so underrated with sport in particular is you're not just throwing a ball around with your mates, and it's such an out for me in terms of sort of escaping my own problems for a couple hours, being with my friends, having a reset.

:: 05:47

Yeah.

:: 05:48

And I think over recent years as well. You know, I've been playing down at Brunel in the Trailfinder Senior Academy and it's been good, it's been good and it's. It's an out being with the boys every day and it sort of distracts you from your mental health problems. And I think this is massive in and it goes back to a point of, like physical health is coincides with your mental health in my opinion.

Yeah, and just doing those things and getting out is been massive for my mental health. But we obviously met through a friend of mine, chris Stegman. I went down to Reed's Waybridge rugby club where you play. Just talk about reads and how that's helped you in terms of your mental health.

:: 06:27

And I think a lot of things you just touched on. In terms of physically it's obviously amazing for you and the mental side that comes with that is just the biggest boost you can gain. But for me it was more social because I really suffered, I really struggled with on the social side of things. Growing up I didn't go to a lot of parties and I don't drink, so growing up not drinking was a huge thing and I think there's that's a there's a massive stigma around rugby and drink especially.

But growing up growing up, going to 16 to 18 birthday parties and not re drinking and having sort of PTSD as a result of getting drunk when I was sort of 16 to 18. The knock on effect the booze had on me was massive. So not drinking and playing rugby was huge. But I think socially it was massive for me. I think being around a group of guys who for the most part, were pretty accepting the fact that I didn't do that and I just got up, I got on with it and I think it made you between the age of 16 to 21,.

Once you stop, once you start saying no to going to parties and going to gatherings with your mates, they just stop inviting you and they don't really understand. The reason why you don't want to go is because you really suffer in social environments and that actually crowds can be really overwhelming. I'm sort of very sort of for the word sensory sensitive, so like if it's too loud or too many crowds there, I just I really battle and I'd still do it to a certain extent now. So, to come back to it, rugby has really helped me just create a safe space for me to go not only physically exercise but also be around other sort of like minded people in that sense, who sort of really take me in.

And that's where really to been amazing is is they've really sort of not taken me under their wing but they've really accepted me, that I'm sort of neurodiverse and I do have sort of my quirks and I don't really drink that much at all. So that for me, has been the biggest thing for me. I can't thank them enough for being really understanding about that and that's. That's been amazing, taken a while, but it's been awesome. Yeah, they're good, good, blur, good.

:: 08:08

Yeah, I went obviously down there like three or four times and very welcoming guys are very switched on guys, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good Now it's good crowd being down there. Yeah, in terms of not drinking, see, this is a, this is something I try and I reckon that, yeah, I reckon I go through.

You know, I try to think how long it was. I think I did about two months. She doesn't doesn't sound a long time. I'm not drinking and it was more. Just, I don't know. I felt for me, not drinking is as was amazing. But at the same time I go out to rugby events and stuff and everyone else is bad at it, but you're on like a different wavelength to everyone else who you don't, and I was a bit like what do I do? Do I have a couple and a couple turns?

to like seven or eight, and then seven or eight turns to stumbling into a Uber at three in the morning.

And then I'm back in the same cycle again. I think now I've finished uni, so I graduate two weeks ago now. I think now I'm going to give it a proper go of if I am drinking not drinking every Wednesday like we were doing on Saturday, but for me, I think for someone who I like to have a drink, I wouldn't say it's my go-to, but in a social situation it is nice just to have a couple, whether it's with your family at dinner. So I think what I'm going to try and this is something I was thinking about and talking about with my dad was just having maybe once every two weeks, like a little social drink, but not doing what I always do, Because when I go I'm always like, nah, it's all right, I'll be fine, I'll do a couple drinks and, like I said earlier, it just gets out of control very quickly and I think that comes down to feeling a bit socially awkward in those situations.

And now I'm better understanding myself and I'm helping others better understand themselves, Just being back in control of those situations and realizing you don't need to impress people, you need to be selfish. Sometimes that was big for me. Just wanting to impress others. I'm going oh, lads, lad, you don't need to be like that. You can just have a good time without having to drink.

:: 10:21

And equally as well it's having everything in moderation. So it's like telling someone to stop eating bad food. It's just not feasible.

So I think it's by all means have a drink, have a beer at a dinner or a glass of wine with your girlfriend or whatever. There's no harm in that, and sometimes people need to have that at the end of a long day, like some people need that to unwind, and there's nothing against that. I would never preach to any of my clients that they shouldn't be drinking or should be under chocolate and stuff, because it's just not realistic. So I think everything in moderation. I just know that if I was to drink, the days following that are pretty measurable. So I either don't or I'll allow myself to sort of a glass of red dinner or something with the misses or whatever. So that for me is huge. That's massive for me as well.

:: 11:03

You talked about obviously not drinking. What other success stories do you think you've had in terms of things that have helped your mental health and your physical health in a way? Obviously yeah.

:: 11:14

I think it sounds really cliche, but it definitely goes to gym regularly. It's really helped me. Having a routine, a routine in general, I think, whether it be sleep, gym, work, life, everything. I think routine has been this massive savior for me. And that covers all bases, I think eating relatively well. Again I've come back to moderation. I'm not really strict. I mean, you see, what I eat on a daily basis it's pretty horrendous. I'm not too strict on myself and nor will it ever be, but having a routine in place it definitely helps me and therefore if I go outside those lines sometimes I won't punish myself Because I know that the day after all that afternoon I'm going to be going to the gym or playing rugby training with my mates and stuff. And actually walking has been one of the best things to me. I know that you're big on your walking. Walking for me has been the best thing and weirdly, I saw it on your platform a couple of weeks ago. It was like leaving your phone at home.

I've got so programmed to take my phone everywhere with me and I'm like that's my lifeline, I'm not going to do without it. But if I can go an hour or two, whether it be a podcasting or not, I'll sometimes just leave it at home and walk, and that for me has been huge, like weather-dependent. Obviously In the UK I'll go out or anything, but certainly this time of year getting out for an hour going for a walk has been genuinely amazing. It really helps me, yeah.

:: 12:21

That's the exact same. So one of the posts if you don't follow me on Instagram or whatnot one of the posts I did was it was my girlfriend who told me to. She realized when I got really stressed out, obviously with my ADHD and anxiety. I doom scroll for hours but I didn't realize I'm doing it and she's like Tom, she's so understanding.

I adore that girl and she's so helpful with everything that's going on for me mentally, but she's like you need to get off your phone for a bit, let's go for a walk. And then we did it the first time. I just left my phone at home. I felt so much happier. It's such like an easy thing to do, but it sounds so silly Just leave your phone at home.

:: 12:58

Yeah, it's so used to being on the phone. It's not actually that easy.

:: 13:01

And then I looked at my screen time. I was averaging like seven hours a day on my phone and I was like seven hours.

:: 13:06

That's a lot of people as well, yeah.

:: 13:07

And I was just like that's nuts. So for me, when I'm stressed out a few of the posts, I've done a cold shower two minutes max. That's huge for me as well and then walks without my phone. I just do like 40, 45 minutes, I think over the last year. Being comfortable in my own mind has been huge for me and this is what I'm trying to teach people as well is you've got to learn to be comfortable in your own mind, because your mind's the only thing at the end of the day you can control. And being able to be in your own mind without a distraction, just walking around enjoying what's around you, that was massive for me, and now I've gotten a good habit of doing that and I'm sort of incorporating that into runs. So my girlfriend always runs. She doesn't run my music in, she's a big runner so she'll run like 15K and then come back. But that's her peace of mind and I've started trying to do that. I suck at running.

I'm awful at it, but in terms of just, it's so simple, just being off your phone. It can be so toxic. On social media you see stuff like people dying or people just abusive comments to other people. I've had a few things on my post, nothing bad. Why am I a bit like did you need to?

:: 14:17

comment now. You can read too much into it and you can read tickets to heart. Exactly that's what I'm overthinking. It's like in your sort of GCSEs or A-levels You've got 11 grades and you get one bad one. You're not focusing on the 10 that are good, you're focusing on one. That's not as good.

We as sort of human beings are inherently bad at that. It's focused on the negative and the positive and, in general, social media can be a great place. As you're reaching out to people and helping people through platforms, it could be amazing. However, the other side of it is most of it's not real. Alarmgilds here versus world is a lot of my social media stuff is I'm very lucky, I'm lucky enough to go on holidays and be with my family a lot. A lot of that is just people can see that you're away a lot and they think you have this amazing lifestyle and that you're jet-setting around the world and stuff.

:: 14:56

And that's not true.

:: 14:58

But what I don't see is that the 99% of that is that you can be miserable, sad, and the ones that actually portray the best lifestyles are the ones who actually aren't as happy. So that's what I've learned, and I'm sort of getting better at sort of leaving the social media side alone and not reading too much into the lifestyles of other people, because you can get so drawn into that, particularly young people growing up.

:: 15:17

Yeah, social media is like. Me and my brother discussed this. I must have been about six months ago now. We both deleted Instagram and we gave that a go and we did it for about three weeks and then it's hard when everything you know is on a platform like that everyone you know, people send you DMs, people posting photos you just feel so out of the loop that you can't really delete it. And it's something I'm still trying to figure out because I still do it every day like the doom scrolling. But now I'm aware of it. It's been so helpful because now I'm like, oh no, I'm doing this again.

Let's put the phone down, let's go out, let's try something new and I think, just the awareness around that sometimes you don't realize I generally scrolled for two hours one day and had no idea. Like two hours was gone, done scary, isn't? It yeah, and I had no clue, but yeah, that's been massive for me as well, putting the phone away it walks, and I think a lot that comes back to and there'll be a theme of routines around.

:: 16:18

The whole thing we'll be talking about is, I think it's setting yourself a goal of having under a certain amount of hours per week and if that means having a 45-minute scroll at the end of each evening when you get into bed, or getting in for the night and going to sleep or whatever setting yourself times to be able to be on your phone, Otherwise you shouldn't be on it.

It's not that you can't be on your phone at all, because certainly with my work, I need to be on my phone a lot. It's just communicating with clients and stuff. But I think otherwise I spend a bit like you. I spend so many hours scrolling through nothing and I've gained zero from it. So I think it's being strict on myself to be able to tell myself I'm going to learn to play an instrument, I'm going to learn to learn a language. That kind of thing is being proactive with your time. Rather than getting home and you're first, you want to go through your phone and scroll through TikTok, Instagram, all the things that you're gaining absolutely zero from but at the same time, not being too strict on yourself. You're only not doing those things. That makes sense.

:: 17:07

So I think, it's just again.

:: 17:08

it's a balanced thing and also almost teaching yourself a new routine.

:: 17:12

Completely agree. Touch on, something we talked about just before we went on the pod was the Grace Deer Trust. I know this is something that is very close to your heart and we talked briefly on it, but I'd love to hear the background on that and what could you do to support it.

:: 17:26

Yeah, so I met Karen, who is the mom of the charity, I guess you could say, through the gym I used to work at and I was sort of handed her as a new client and I sort of honestly, we got on like a house on fire immediately. She was like my second mom and very tragically she lost her daughter, grace, to suicide and as a result, the Grace Deer Trust. So Karen's daughter unfortunately. So she took her own life and she'd been battling for years and years and years with mental health and eating disorders and whatnot, and I grew very, very fond of the entire family, but most of all Karen and what she stood for, and she was just the most amazing thing.

Genuinely. That has happened to me for a very, very long time and it's only changed my life Because it definitely made me sort of think about things and the battles that I've certainly come to terms with and I've worked closely with them since basically their inception, since the whole thing started, and it's been amazing and I'll do anything for them. I've actually brought them into Reed's Weight Bridge, so we've sort of collaborated as a rugby club and a mental health charity to actually work together.

Because they recognize that to help the local community is getting in through school but also sports teams as well, because the two just go hand in hand right. It's amazing how many people you wouldn't know are going through a really, really rough time that seemingly on the surface look who came back to earlier has service, have everything and have come from very privileged backgrounds you and I are very lucky to have had. So they in Elmbridge are doing everything in their power to, and they're quite small. They're a very, very small charity. They're the big sort of mind which you know. They're doing amazing work as well, but it certainly in terms of the local community that I work with them. They are just doing the most amazing like groundbreaking stuff possible. That is insane.

:: 19:01

Yeah, I love that as a PT would you say, there's sort of anything you do in particular to help your clients in terms of mental health or is that something you look into, because obviously you talked about.

:: 19:14

Yeah. So I think behind most people that are doing physical exercise, there's often a reason as to why they're doing it. So people that I work with on a day-to-day basis most of my clients is you've actually become more of a therapist than you are a trainer to them. You end up sharing a lot of things with me and I'm happy to do that, which again will touch on what I want to get into as well. You know what I want to sort of go down the lines of going into my own sort of therapy, which we'll touch on later. But certainly there's often a reason as to why people are exercising and it's not just physical. It's often to sort of battle demons they might have had from a previous life Again with you. And I right, you exercise not just for the physical but obviously what's going on upstairs as well.

So, yeah, I think it's learning to listen and share and not so much give advice on, because most of them are grown adults and they can sort of, you know, they know themselves better than I know them, certainly, but I think it's just learning to listen and sort of delve a bit deeper, without getting too deep into their situations, as to why they're doing what they're doing. And it's amazing that if you just have a platform to be able to, you know, share with someone and they trust you enough, it's amazing what I'll tell you and amazing what people, again, that seemingly have everything that actually don't and that they are really battling every day, just like you and I, are yeah, I completely agree and we touched on before and these are sort of like the five pillars of mental health which people say and what I think as well.

:: 20:38

One of the main ones for me is exercise. So we've got sleep, nutrition, mindfulness, exercise, communication and exercise for me. I think everyone's different and everyone's got to find their own way and when people say exercise, you automatically think like go to the gym, bench, press long run. That's not the case, like we touched on earlier, like a small walk, a 30 minute walk, just get out, just be in your own mind. Get out, be in your own mind Once, twice a week. It doesn't have to be a lot, but that's twice as many times as you were going to do before and then just build on it. And I wrote an article which I released yesterday released yesterday on small steps and especially for me with ADHD is taking small steps in these situations in terms of exercise and whatnot. If you haven't done it before, it can be as little as wake up, put on your running clothes, go brush your teeth, get outside, start walking.

:: 21:38

It doesn't have to.

:: 21:39

I think when people think exercise and they haven't exercised before, they think of this huge step. But it doesn't have to be that you can start off so small. You can just get outside, get outside, go for a quick walk. If you have a dog, take the dog out, just go enjoy yourself. It doesn't have to be like a hard thing, it doesn't have to be a stressful thing. If you're not enjoying it, then you can figure something else out and try a different app.

:: 22:01

100% is one of the most pointed videos I've seen on your platform is when you were having a really really shit day beforehand, like a really really bad day, and you told yourself you'd go. I think it was clean your room, tidy, tidy.

That's a tidy room tidy mind and go do some exercise and that literally boosted your entire day thereafter what was started off as a really rubbish day and you were having a really low mood and you thought you had resound yourself to have a bad day thereafter. It was like what can I do to make myself a bit better in this situation? That was to spend an hour, 10, 15 minutes, no matter what time it is, tidying something and that automatically has a huge impact on you beneficially in terms of your brain and also getting out exercise and a huge impact on you. For me, what I can really really relate to is doing these little things, these little steps. As you put it couldn't make the biggest difference. A little goes a long way type thing. These little things here and there don't take a lot of time and effort, but actually mentally they're actually quite hard to do sometimes because all you want to do is get in your duvet, get in bed and feel sorry for yourself. All the bad food and it's that repetitive song you're writing.

:: 23:02

Yeah, it is and I think I did that for so many years and I think this is the reason why I wanted to do what I'm doing now and trying to help people is I never thought I would do this. I never truly knew what I wanted to do. I love the idea of having my own business and all those. I never thought I'd go into the mental health space until one day. I was just like I could help somebody because I posted something on my story and someone replied a good friend of mine, I won't name him and he was like I've been really struggling and this really helped me and I was a bit like I can do this. I feel like this is my purpose in terms of I've gone through what I've been through to help people like this. And the point you said on just wanting to get in your duvet and just do nothing.

I did that for so many years and I sort of just I let my own mind just trap me in a way and I just I wouldn't want to wake up in the morning and I just want to lie in bed all day. I had no motivation. I felt sad all day. I could never understand why, but I think when I look back at it is I didn't try, if that makes sense, I let it happen.

And then it was so hard it was one of the hardest things I've done, but little things, just like the small steps I keep coming back to of getting out of bed when you feel like that, making your bed, getting a cold shower, and just the small steps add up so quickly and then you start to take back control of your mind slowly, and now I'm at the point where I feel so in control, where I know if something's coming, I know what to do, and I think that's what I'm trying to show to people is don't let it trap you, don't be like me, because it was awful, and I'm sure you've had a similar experience, where you just you don't want to wake up some days and it's just holding yourself accountable for that, realizing your brain's trying to say no and combating it, just going for it and being like, yes, I am going to do this.

Now I am going to read five pages of this book, only five pages. I'm going to do it when your brain's like no, no, doom scroll, doom scroll, and I think that's been massive as well. Another point I wanted to mention was you want to become a counsellor further down the line and I think that's an awesome idea because obviously you've been through a lot of stuff.

Do you think your experiences of what you've been through has sort of spiked you wanting to become a counsellor and help the younger people?

:: 25:39

Yeah, one million percent. I think I joked about it earlier. With my job, you become more of a counsellor and you do a trainer. I mean, that's obviously a bit tongue-in-cheek, but a lot of. It's true you listen and talk as much as you do train, because you spend a lot of time with these people. If you're seeing them three or four days a week, that's more than they see some of their friends and families right, which is quite sad, but it's true.

I think through my experience of having therapy as well I've had, I think, four or five therapists in my life and certainly through seeing someone like that. One of my absolute demigods I look up to most is a woman called Nikki Anstey, who I saw as a hypnotherapist, and if you told me I was going to get a therapy couple of years ago, I would have laughed at you saying like yeah, I would have literally laughed at you and thought I'd be like no way, it's so hokey, it's for complete whatever.

But my mum literally said you're going to therapy again, you need to go, and because I can't do this anymore. Joe, you're spent, you're vegetating in bed, you're being wastage. You can't see how much you could be giving to people, how important you are to not just the family, but how much people love you. I just couldn't see it. I had no value whatsoever. So she dragged me to this therapist. She took me to Guildford. I saw Nikki and I was hooked and it wasn't a sense of like I fell asleep and I woke up and I was a new man. It was a long process but certainly through seeing her, it was one of the best stages that I've made in my entire life. She really helped me. But going back to see her regularly, it was one of the best things I've ever done and she was just like genuinely life changing.

And I look at things so differently now and I think a lot of that was perspective.

I looked at life very, very differently and I had a lot of bad blood and ill feeling toward all the people in my life.

And now I look at them and I sort of. One of the phrase that stuck out to me is that's their stuff and that might make a lot of sense to a lot of people, but I think a lot of it comes down to is we hold so much anger and hatred and sad toward people when actually we don't look at it introspectively and go that's them and if they want to act in a certain way, that's completely down to them. And I think it's learning not to let things affect you as much and I really did for a long, long, long time and I really took a lot of stuff to heart whereas now certainly through her help and many, many others is that people that used to bother me now don't because I can separate myself from them and if they want to implode and be the nasty sort of narcissistic people that I've surrounded myself with, but actually to separate yourself, actually realise that you're far better off for it and that you just do your thing right?

:: 28:03

Yeah, I love that. I think that's until you just said it then. That's something I'm awful at and something my dad always talks to me about as well is I get really angry, really really angry, over lots of minor things. But those minor things they just build up and I blow, and I think that's something in terms of you know, it's how they're acting to you, sort of don't let it affect you as much, as I take things to heart. That's just my nature and that's something I'm trying to figure out as well. In terms of hypnotherapy, obviously I've never heard of hypnotherapy, but I might look at it.

What type of other things would you do with? Was it Nikki?

:: 28:45

Yes, so Nikki, yeah so she's very much based on like how the brain works and it's not like a one size fits all policy. People might go there and think it's completely hokey nonsense, but I wouldn't not necessarily an open mind, which is why I thought it never worked for me, because a lot of this stuff, like you know, you can get cured from smoking and drinking by basically falling asleep and someone waving someone over your head. It wasn't like that, it was more going in there, her listening to my story and then giving me perspective on how I saw other people being, and she uses like allergies. Like you know, the bully in the playground is often they're not bullying because they're a nasty person. It's because they've got real demons going on and it's coming from a place of insecurity and I was a bit like that.

I didn't treat people particularly nice at school growing up. It's because I had such massive insecurities of myself. It projected outwardly onto the people and that came across like I was being a nasty, horrible person. It wasn't, and the people that they're often the worst are actually people that have got so much going on themselves and I think it's just learning to go. The people that are often projecting that onto other people actually the ones that are suffering so bad at themselves by separating yourself makes life so much easier.

:: 29:47

Yeah, I completely agree with that point. It's um, I think that's something I struggled with as well is just your own insecurities, putting them onto people. And one thing that always like sticks out for me is my dad, and anyone could say anything to him and he is just cold blooded. He's sort of just he's like okay, it's fine inside. He could be really upset, but he doesn't show it. But if someone does say something bad to him in terms of you know, a bit on edge and he's that relaxed head that person always feels like an idiot afterwards and is a bit like why did I raise my?

:: 30:26

mind Like killing my kindness, yeah, exactly and he's always.

:: 30:29

He always says to me he was like, um, he was like it's the same with your brother, but you I think he said it was the same. Yeah, he said it's the same with my brother and him. And when you sort of have an alpha type or around you alpha, if you act like a beta, but you know you're sort of the alpha inside, people don't know how to handle that. If you're really calm, collected, kind, but inside you still know, you know this like what you could do, he's like that's the sign of you know a good person, dangerous. Not a dangerous person like Physically, but in terms of someone who's in control of their body.

:: 31:13

Have you heard of Jordan Peterson? Yeah, I have heard of Jordan Peterson, so like one of the things that stuck out to me was when he said Every man should have the capability to be a monster. Yeah, being dangerous and that's not to say you go beat people up or like mug someone, it's having the capabilities to be a monster but never having to show it, yeah, is the best kind of person you can be is being called calm, collected in those situations, knowing you have the capability to do those things.

is that that's, he says, what he all mentioned aspire to be, and of course it's a word for everyone, but that definitely remind me of that, like he's yeah, I must first said it way better than I keep.

:: 31:46

That's kind of the point I was trying to come across. He said that to me since I was about 1314, when I get really annoyed and stuff and he was like just relax, control, control of all this is always something he'd say as well, and it's just Now. I'm growing up and you know my headspace is kind of changing, the more I tried to do that Sort of what I felt like when I'd fight fire with fire I'd always lose, and like if it was like coaches or something or I disagreed with, or someone says something to me, I go bang, I come straight for them.

Now being able to sit back, sort of take it in, know what I kind of want to say but not saying it.

Yeah it's just. I think that's a sign of maturity as well. For sure, that's something. Especially over the last three months, I've really tried to work on on myself because I think I pushed away a lot of people growing up by doing that. Yeah, you mean both. Well, I look back at it and I'm a not I don't regret it because it was a good lesson, but I also think I Don't know I just pushing people away by not not being rude, necessarily meaning to be rude, but just Going at them and when I didn't need to, is something that I look back on and do regret. But I think these are all good lessons which I've learned.

Now and I'm again, what I'm trying to teach to people is how to control that and you know, as, like you said, it's not one size fits all. You know what works for me might not work for you. But yeah, that's what I'm trying to try to get at in terms of like him, he's talked about Jordan Peterson. I Think he's great. I don't know his background, but I also see little snippets of stuff and I think it's so important for like young men, especially in today's day and age, to grow up with someone like watching the clips of people like that and another one I my thinks great is Chris Williamson and he has his own podcast.

He's all got a buzz cut, this America. I think he lives around Texas, but just the way he conducts himself. He's very meticulous in what he does, gets his point across quickly and it's just very switched on guy. I think these are people that I Know growing up. Oh, I don't want to say I didn't have, but I think in terms of role models outside of my family I Don't think it was anyone that I had growing up, where I was like, well, that's the guy I want to, I want to follow.

But now a bit older, I watch a few people conduct themselves and People speak on podcasts in particular, and it's just. It gives me a bit of hope in terms of I Agree with that stuff. You're coming across really well. That's how I want to Like, help people as well, especially the younger people, because I think it's from 13 to 18. That's confusing, confusing age. I think, a lot of people are lost and a lot of people feel like they don't have a purpose.

:: 34:45

I may. You're spot on. I think, coming back to what you're saying earlier about who you follow on a Podcast front, is young. Young men now, I think, have a lot harder than we did. I think, yeah, I agree they're growing up in a world where being a man is almost shamed and that they have to behave in certain ways that fit in with the New rhetoric and whatever that may be, and that's really confusing. And I think, whilst I'm a complete advocate for, you know, women in society and because I've been a great with a very female Dominant family, I sort of had to be and I'm all for that.

But men nowadays have a young men particularly sort of teenagers, growing up, going through Sort of puity into sort of 16 to 18. They've got it really tough because they now don't have a sense of sort of like understanding and also Sort of self-worth and knowing what it's like to be a man. It's really cliche, but being a man is like it's just now lost in translation a little bit. Everything's going on was sort of I will go into the politics of they, them and and whatever else it's. It's really, really tough.

So, having these male role models like Ben Shapiro, jordan Peterson, matt Walsh. They're all amazing Speakers and they're actually going off. It's not old-school at all, it's just basically holding on to his principles that every man should adhere to, and that, for me, has been Amazing to see that they're still out there, sort of fighting the good fight and showing young men watching these clips, and these guys are well followed far more than you arrive at will be but it's insane how these guys are having to do that but they are and this is some of the times, isn't it?

and hopefully the sort of it will level off and the madness will stop. It will come back to her should be, which is all men should be growing up being told how to you know behave but also that they're gonna be guys and they're gonna make mistakes along the way, and that it's, you know, not being chastised for doing certain actions which every man will do right, yes that's just. That's the way I see it, and these guys are pivotal in that, completely agree.

:: 36:31

Yeah, a fact which I know made me slightly upset when I was doing some research before this was the World Health Organization Did a study and it showed that one in four people worldwide will experience a mental health issue at some point, and that's obviously a mix of men and women, but a lot of the like younger population of men are taking their own lives and.

I, you know, I look back to when I was 16 and I don't think I didn't get to that point where I was like you know, I want to die, oh. But I was just so heavily depressed and I think I wrote again, not plugging it, but I wrote another article on Finding my purpose and how. When I found it, it just like it was like a breath of fresh air, almost like a weight off my shoulders and I feel like from covid and and everything. There's all this backlog of people not getting proper uni experiences and, you know, schools like not getting proper ends of school and Not making the right set of friends.

And for me, when I was at uni, my first year, well, we were in training for rugby, but there was no one on campus like we trained in. Like a how do I say it? Like a not sterile environment, like a, like a closed, closed environment bubble, yeah, bubble, that's it a bubble, and apart from that I didn't know anyone at uni and as my whole, of my first year. Then it gets the second year and you've got to think if people have come from overseas and they come in, how are they making friends?

and I think it's just destroyed people's mental health, people Going to social situations and I think it's really sad. And I think, as you touched on, having those people that you can sort of look up to, who have those sort of core values. No matter who it is, it could be anyone, just the person you Connect with, a person that you think, yeah, this is who I want to be like.

It's just so important and I hope I can help someone and the people I bring on, like yourself, can sort of provide something where they're like. You know I resonate with that. I love that I'm gonna give it a go or whatnot.

I feel like again when we grew up and obviously I'm turning 21 and I'm still young, but I think I don't remember people growing up and I touched on it a couple of times now, but I just think that's. You know, if I had someone like that when I was 15, 16, I think would I be in a different headspace as to where I was or in terms of the people around. And you know, these are things I'm really happy for that, in a way, are going on, and I think it's so important that they are, yeah, 100%.

:: 39:10

And also, I didn't really grow up having sort of suicide, depression, anxiety being talked about, partly because it would have needed to be for sure. Yeah, and there's a huge stigma around that, but certainly in this day and age. You know, 10, 15 years have gone since those things happened and like 75% of suicides on the earth is men, if not more now, and it's scary how the numbers are just getting more and more and more. There's no sign of them slowing and yet the resources are out there for people, but they're just so overrun and they're a year long waiting list of people. So if not, the UNI are going to go and save the world, but if there are more people out there, on a much smaller scale than people that we talked about, is the amount of messages I've had is amazing, but also alarming from people that I had no idea about. And UNI get in touch with us before we started filming. Is that you would have no idea? These people are struggling with something and I'm sure we'll touch on that in a second. Is this that the on face value you can read judge someone based on certain things, and that's what we're all guilty of the max.

Since I've started sharing about my story and being sort of what's coming out as well like in terms of my struggles. I think I've probably had several hundred messages from people men and women, but mostly men that have gone. I've been suffering in silence for God knows how long and it's so nice to hear someone that's normal come out and talk about it, which I use the word normal really loosely, so far from it, yeah, but so it's. What's. The most telling thing for me is how many people are out there. I mean, everyone has mental health wrong. We all have bad days. There's just a scale of people that suffer with it far worse and allow it to sort of bother them more than maybe most.

:: 40:47

So, yeah, agreed, and that's something that, like that, really upset me. One night was I got a DM from someone I had no idea. I won't say his name again, no idea who he was. He was in America, never heard of him. Must have just seen my hashtags out on my post. Must have just come through one of them.

And he sent me a message and he was like hey mate, I'm really struggling. Just I'm struggling and I don't really know what to do. Do you have any advice? I've just been looking through all your posts and I've been doing this for a month and I was just like apart me, like may feel a bit upset now. I was just a bit like I'm surprised.

This guy has no idea who I am. I've never met him and he's reaching out Like he must be really struggling In a really bad place and he's like a normal bloke. You know he had a kid and I was just a bit like I don't know, I make sure.

:: 41:35

Yeah, it's like what I read it and I was trying to. That is so unequipped to be able to help him. All you can do is give him the advice that you've been given, right, exactly, and you would want to hear.

:: 41:44

Yeah, and that's what I did. I think, in terms of depression and this is a quote I heard from Chris Williamson on his podcast and he and this isn't the exact quote, but he was like men with depression get treated. They get treated. Men with depression get treated the same as female depression, and that's not what a man wants in terms of he wants to feel like he has a purpose, he wants to feel like he can do good in terms of certain things. And I think, in a certain aspect although I'm not qualified enough to talk on this is I think he's right and I think that's where a lot of people are going wrong is we have to treat like I didn't want to get, oh, it's all right, Like it's fine.

:: 42:32

You want answers.

:: 42:33

That made me actually angry. So I get people at school like everyone would just be trying to help and they'd be like, oh, don't worry, like it's okay, like we'll do this tomorrow, and I was like, no, I want to, I need someone to just drag me through. And that's what my dad did. And my dad held me accountable and he let me soak, he let me do his things and he never said anything. And this is something my mom my mom as well it's just. I've always respected him massively, for I couldn't be more grateful.

They held me accountable for what was going on, and when I wouldn't want to wake up in the morning, they go in my room. And they'd be like get up, let's go. They wouldn't let me lie in bed till three in the afternoon, as I was before. They'd be in there every day. Right, let's go. I don't want to be in the room, and that's just something like I've always stuck with me. I didn't want to get mummied from it. I didn't want to get oh, don't worry, let's do this tomorrow. I wanted answers, I wanted, but even though it's nice to get the mummy effect not really mummy, it's nice that, it's nice to have that but in terms of getting a cure or not a cure, but getting better is. I needed someone to drag me through. I felt like I was at the bottom of the ditch, trying to scrape it. I needed someone to help me build the ladder to get out, not someone to drag me out so I could fall back in.

I needed someone to build that ladder small steps that I could just climb out and figure it out myself, and that's what they set. They set the foundations for me to do that and that's why I'm so grateful I'm here today talking about and I almost feel guilty in a way talking about because I'm not qualified, I don't have a university degree in mental health but I'm just trying to help people on what's worked for me and I think that's massively important. It's like you just need someone to help you build those foundations, or just someone to hold you accountable in those situations.

And for me that was a game changer, because I've sulked and moped around for a good year before that happened.

:: 44:29

The way I was told to compare that, because I was just to say that I wasn't good enough. I didn't have a degree in X, y and Z. Therefore, who am I to talk about it? And I can't be sure who I was talking about it with. But they said would you rather go to someone who had a degree in cars, who had been a mechanic for 30 years or 20 years and stuff, who had been working on a number of cars ever since? And I said obviously the mechanic, and you go. Well, the person who's had a degree in cars, who's never owned one, is they're going to have nothing about cars. They would know the bare minimum. It didn't work and they would cover a certain basis. But the person who's been under the car, who's been, who's changed the oil, who's worked on the engine, they know far more than the person who's got this degree with all these amazing merits to show for it.

So, like your personal experiences, will help many, many, many more people than, just, say, the random person who's got a degree in something that actually haven't been through it. Which is why, again, I come back to what I wanted to become, back to being a therapist or counsellor is because I've been through that. I will automatically know, not necessarily the right things to say, but certainly someone who's been through my situations I'll be able to point them in the right directions and what to do and what not to do. Particularly a guy, because men just have this innate ability not to be able to communicate, and that's something that I really want to sort of drive home to Particularly young lads, young boys, and that's where it's most confusing, because boys of a certain age can be confused with just going through puberty and being angry at the world, and that's not always the case. Yeah, I completely agree.

:: 45:48

Would you say for me? Obviously, we spoke on podcast hosts and what not, but do you think there's any resources, books, online platforms that you recommend in terms of where people can start? Obviously, they can look on social media, and the shorts for me are what helps, like the 15 second Instagram TikTok clips. I just find them so good because I feel like and this is something I looked at is talking with Scott and stuff was I don't know who Scott's behind the camera but, when Scott and I were planning stuff.

When the videos are too long, people just don't have the attention span to watch them. So I did a 15 second clip on TikTok and it got 6,500 views. And I did like a 35 or 36 second one and it got like 2,100 views and we were like comparing them and we kept doing them and it was the same outcome every time and I think those little short snippets are what massively helped me. But also I suck at reading. I bought two books in and I bought Stolen Focus by Joanne Harry and that's something I'm trying to read at the moment.

Obviously, I won't comment on it because I'm not long into it, but he is basically explaining why you feel like you've lost your focus and basically what he did was he put his phone away and he moved away and he was writing a book and he basically talks about his lessons on what he found and watching people and how he felt like he had to grab his phone all the time. But that's not really the case. He didn't have to there was nothing going on.

He felt paranoid. He thought someone was going to die at home if he didn't have his phone as soon as a message pinged up. I think it was something like in terms of Pavlov's dogs. It's like a psychology study, where they're like I could be so wrong?

yes, but they ring a bell every time there's food and the dog knows that when that happens there's food and basically he's like when? And there's something my mum spoke about as well. When that message pings on your phone, you just go like that, you don't even think you look and putting that phone away. He didn't know what to do, he felt weird, he felt on edge, and that's kind of how I feel at the moment is putting my phone away on walks. I just automatically find myself going to my pocket and then I'm like I have no phone there and it's stuff like that which I'm finding useful and I'm going to read, obviously, a bit more. When I've fully read the book, I'll talk about it properly, but that book looks amazing and that's something I'm definitely looking into more in terms of resources and trying to better understand what's going on. Would there be anything on your end in terms of that which you found, or it doesn't have to be anything?

:: 48:29

No, no, I mean, like you, I'm not much of a reader, so I've tried to force myself, particularly when I'm holiday, to read a bit more than I do, and I've got. I mean, karen Grace is mum, she gives me books every now and again. I'll dip into them every now and again and a lot of it is mental health based. You know, like Ross Kemp's book about like Ross Kemp, roman Kemp, sorry, his book was amazing and he obviously lost his very, very close friend through the radio station, that kind of stuff, which is a pretty tragic story. So yeah, roman Kemp's book is one that I want to start.

Otherwise, again attention span thing, is the little sort of TikTok videos, little snippets here and there that I find really, really useful. And I got sent. A very good friend of mine, troy, sent me a video once it was months ago on TikTok. I only have the app at the time, so I went on the thing and then, due to the algorithm, everything I go, whenever I go on TikTok, is usually mental health based, which is no problem for me, I don't mind that.

I see the rugby, or mental health is usually my life.

:: 49:20

Similar to mine.

:: 49:21

Yeah, so every other thing is like a motivational quote or a clip from Jordan Peterson, peterson, matt Walsh, that kind of thing is. That really helps me, and if I am scrolling through social media I'll often make it sort of proactive, if I can, rather than just scrolling through holy photos making myself jealous. It's going down a bit of a rabbit hole of those kind of cool quotes and actually a bit of a motivation, because often with mental health is particularly in men because it's isolation. Whereas women come together as a group and they talk about their problems, men keep themselves themselves and seeing other people that go through the same thing, you often feel alone. You often feel like no one's going to understand me.

What's the point in talking? Whereas when you see those little quotes or people talking to the camera, if it's you or I, whoever is it's like minded, they're much like you are. So it sort of gives you a bit of a boost, thinking actually I'm not alone, I can't talk, I'm not a freak, I'm not this loser that no one loves, it's just actually I'm just one in many, many millions of people. I'm not my own type of thing. Yeah, a bit like you.

:: 50:19

Yeah, roman Kemp's, from where I'm from in Chawleywood, and we live very close to his mom and dad.

So we've Roman Kemp's someone like I speak about quite a lot in terms of what he's done and I think it just comes back to a point is like he's a DJ on Capitol, cool guy, lovely guy, great family and I think it just comes back to a point like mental health can affect anyone and it doesn't matter how rich you are, it doesn't matter if you're six foot. Five doesn't matter if you're five foot, doesn't matter if you're a man, you're a woman, anything it can affect anyone. It can bring anyone to their knees and I personally like to think I'm quite a tough guy. Some would say no, but in terms of that, like in terms of anxiety, depression, adhd, like it knocked me for six for a long time and I think people like Sam Thompson as well he was on Made in Chelsea.

He's just released a program on ADHD and like his journey on trying to find out why he acts how he acts and why he sort of makes impulse decisions and why he's like, really like in terms of his thoughts, like why his thoughts are so intrusive and his relationships with people and why he's found that hard, and I think that's one thing on my end. Just to touch on quickly with ADHD is like there's a lot of unknown symptoms out there which people have no idea about, which I'll talk about another time. I'll do some Instagram parts on it. But I think that's the most concerning thing is people see mental health problems as like, if you're depressed, you know you're sad. If you're you've got anxiety, you're stressed. If you've got ADHD, you're high practice, whereas like there's hundreds of things behind the scenes which people don't affiliate with these problems in terms of, yeah, there's a lot of spectrums?

:: 52:12

Yeah, it ruins relationships.

:: 52:15

You know it ruins your work schedule, it ruins your routines. You know you struggle getting to sleep, like I barely sleep. When I do sleep, I sleep for ages because my brain's just so knackered from the day I struggle to get to sleep. It's all these things. But when everything adds up, you know like you lose relationships with your friends and stuff out when they all add up. That's like how I see it.

Not just he's sad, not just he's hyperactive, it's all these behind the scenes stuff which people just don't take in which I think is raising awareness on that, especially on this podcast, but just in general is is crucial in terms of people diagnosing themselves, because a lot of people are self-diagnosing and also a lot of people are getting diagnosed wrong, which I find crazy. And I saw on LinkedIn saw on LinkedIn this guy went round. He went around some of the best clinics. I think he went to Harley Street I could be wrong and he said he had ADHD, thought he had ADHD and sort of acted like he had ADHD and they were all three of the clinics like confirmed he had ADHD and gave him medication. But he knew he didn't have ADHD and in terms of that, people just got to be really careful in terms of sort of putting a label on themselves as well.

And that's why I'm trying to get all this sort of like self-worth type looking after yourself and like eliminating these symptoms before looking into it a bit more because it's touched on ADHD as well quickly I thought for like a few months I didn't have ADHD. I like convinced myself I didn't have ADHD. I was like, ah, nah, adhd is not real.

:: 53:57

Sounds so stupid.

:: 53:58

But like I really convinced myself I didn't have it and I tried doing all these things and that's what I realized. I definitely still have it yeah. But if I didn't try that eliminating thing, I think when I saw he got self-diagnosed I was like well, if I got self-diagnosed.

It makes you doubt yourself. You've really just got to be proactive in what you do with all this stuff and make sure that it's working well. And it is right You're not just self-diagnosing. It's common for young men to not want to talk about their problems. You know, as we do. What advice would you give to someone who's at this stage of not wanting to talk about their problems but knows something going on? Or just advice, you know, for a parent who knows that maybe their child is going through something. Family, friend or friend who knows going through a problem?

:: 54:47

Good question. So if it were me and I was to go through all again, it's difficult if you've got teenage kids but from a mother or father or auntie, uncle, looking in, seeing their children as behavioral, usually it's like if they're just being, if they're acting out of character, doing things that are unusual. Looking out for those behaviour patterns that are slightly against the grain, that's what I definitely look forward to look into and being very gentle with the information you're giving, rather than telling them off and shouting and stuff. And being shouted at it forms a behaviour that they can't open up to their parents. If they're being shouted at and in my experience it's anyway.

Everyone's different but certainly I think if you notice one of your friends at school not telling up to school, for example, in your situation not telling up to school, you notice that's happening regularly and there's no health problems behind it. Physical health, I mean reaching out and encouraging them to speak, and particularly in men. In my learned experience is that I had loads and loads of friends growing up but none that I felt close enough to that I could really share with.

:: 55:46

So the saying is you don't need loads of friends, just good ones.

:: 55:50

It's just having a good group of friends around you who are like-minded, that you can feel really comfortable opening up to and girls from a young age are taught to have that, whereas men aren't. They usually like if you're a team sport, play the sport and then you leave and do your own thing is keep a close group around you that you can really hold on to and share things with which, at a young age, is difficult.

:: 56:09

Yeah, agreed, I think that's big. For me as well was realising I shouldn't share. This was probably a lesson that I learnt from me personally was I shouldn't share everything to everyone and, like you, I had loads of friends growing up who at one point I'd sort of tell everyone, to even people who wasn't close in terms of my mental health. I didn't talk for ages and then I found myself telling people that I shouldn't have told, looking back on, and people that didn't not care, but people that sort of didn't have my best interest at heart, or you gained nothing from sharing.

Exactly, and it made me look like a bit of an idiot. Sharing it with. I felt like having a type. My dad says, like in other circles of people, whether that's friends, family, who you can share things to my girlfriend, and that's been massive for me and then sort of keep everyone else as just general. They're your mates, but they're not your circle of people that you trust with your life.

:: 57:07

Yeah, 100%, I think. Lastly as well and again we'll probably touch on it afterwards is that if you don't feel comfortable to reach out to your friends and family, is either through school and seek help Like there are so many places out there now and for me as well, I felt like I couldn't speak to a lot of my friends and family there for seeking external advice was the best thing, because seeking therapy can be this huge thing. We think that you're going to be talked to by shrink and you're going to be told that you're going mad. It's not. It's basically having a trusted space within four walls where you can say and do whatever you wish within reason and know that you're not being judged for it.

So for me therapy certainly say my life was a bit dramatic, but it certainly well, maybe it did.

So definitely, going to therapy definitely saved my life, especially talking about it, one million percent. It was going to a four walled space where I knew I could bitch, moan, cry, scream, and I knew that nothing that would leave those four walls because they were legally bound to like it wasn't just that, it was they knew they couldn't tell anyone. I didn't know that person personally. Therefore, I could go and overshare, I could say whatever I wanted, my family, and knew that I wasn't going to get chastised for saying bad things about my sisters and my mum and my dad, for example, parents, schools, whatever. So that for me, would be the best thing is anyone that didn't feel they couldn't trust their family or go to them, for anything is look outside of that and there's always things you can go down, numbers you can call or you know whatever. So that's something I'd definitely recommend.

:: 58:30

I'll leave it. Leave it on this, but is there any particular message of advice that you'd like to share with someone from your personal experience that's going through problems with their mental health at this point in time, or has gone through?

:: 58:44

in terms of lessons you've learned, For me is speak early enough, and that a problem shared is a problem halved. I think if you could share early enough, then things will become easier. I think we're just talking, definitely just talking. Share, talk and surround yourself with people that you can trust.

:: 59:02

Awesome.